<div dir="ltr"><div><div>Oh no Nick, this is the No.1 topic guaranteed to turn me into Angry Dave from the parallel universe :-(<br></div><div>Read this page. Someone you know contributed to it:<br><a href="http://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/slackware-14/slackware-and-systemd-885228/">http://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/slackware-14/slackware-and-systemd-885228/</a><br>
</div><div><br></div><div>And there's this:<br><a href="http://monolight.cc/2011/05/the-systemd-fallacy/">http://monolight.cc/2011/05/the-systemd-fallacy/</a><br></div><div><br></div><div>In Debianland this has been going on since at least February. As a Slacker I love reading the Debian mailing lists (popcorn in hand) when there's blood on the floor.<br>
Regarding the wit and charm aspect, read this:<br><a href="http://sporkbox.us/blog/?r=page/108">http://sporkbox.us/blog/?r=page/108</a><br>("The Dangers of Software Evangelism - Case Study: systemd and Debian GNU/Linux": "In this case, the evangelism is <em>encouraged</em> by the lead developer. Is this the
sort of behavior that we wish to see from developers of free software?")<br>Here's the same guy on what happened in Arch<br><a href="http://sporkbox.us/blog/?r=page/95">http://sporkbox.us/blog/?r=page/95</a><br>
</div><div>(Arch has always brought to mind the phrase: Lions led by donkeys.)<br></div><div><br></div><div><div>And check out the editing history of the Wikipedia articles on
Lennart, Kay and Harald. They don't censor their own articles, noooo,
that would be un-Wikial. Instead, every time someone adds a
"controversy" section, the next guy in the three way Dead Rat circle
jerk censors it for his pal. <br></div><div><br></div>And now of course systemd is in ur udev watching u get assimilated. Joy. Here is what Linus himself thinks of that:<br><a href="http://article.gmane.org/gmane.linux.kernel/1369384">http://article.gmane.org/gmane.linux.kernel/1369384</a><br>
"Kay, you are so full of sh*t that it's not funny. You're refusing to
acknowledge your bugs, you refuse to fix them even when a patch is
sent to you, and then you make excuses for the fact that we have to
work around <b>*your*</b> bugs, and say that we should have done so from the
very beginning."<br></div><div> </div>And here are four more highly significant data points from just four weeks ago:<br>"I would like to request CVE ids for 4 systemd issues"<br><a href="http://seclists.org/oss-sec/2013/q4/4">http://seclists.org/oss-sec/2013/q4/4</a><br>
</div>And the person credited for finding them works for Red Hat QA in Germany, which raises deep questions about Red Hat's internal processes... the underlying cause being that new code will have bugs that decades old sysvinit does not have, and that the "one process to rule them all" will inevitably have bugs to pwn them all and in the darkness bind them. <br>
I despair when the trivial real problem (i.e. Red Hat's init scripts are ludicrous shitspawn from hell, and always have been) somehow is turned into pressure for everybody to fall into line. Besides the evangelism, here is how it happens bit by bit: for example, Pat Volkerding just a week ago mentioning a recent version of cups that was broken if systemd wasn't present:<br>
<div><a href="http://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/slackware-14/%5Bslackware-14-1rc1%5D-some-loose-ends-4175481200/#post5048743">http://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/slackware-14/%5Bslackware-14-1rc1%5D-some-loose-ends-4175481200/#post5048743</a><br>
<br></div><div class="gmail_extra">And, Nick, when you say: "Reliable process start/stop is nice for systemd (cgroups based)" I hope you know about the new close coupling between cgroups and systemd, which fucks up LXC containers for everyone not running systemd... and the cgroups maintainer, surprise! works for Red Hat. <br>
<br></div><div class="gmail_extra">These are the same people who brought you Gnome 3, and the same people who effectively told XFCE etc that GTK+3 is gnome-only (hence wireshark and so many more migrating to QT), and the same people who thought embedding Javascript in Polkit was a great idea, and who fucked up udisks, and who want dbus in the kernel, and who inflicted on us the policykit/consolekit stuff that's now *abandoned* in favour of systemd. Some more links:<br>
<a href="http://igurublog.wordpress.com/2012/03/11/udisks2-another-loss-for-linux/">http://igurublog.wordpress.com/2012/03/11/udisks2-another-loss-for-linux/</a><br></div><div class="gmail_extra"><a href="http://igurublog.wordpress.com/2012/11/05/gnome-et-al-rotting-in-threes/">http://igurublog.wordpress.com/2012/11/05/gnome-et-al-rotting-in-threes/</a><br>
<a href="http://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/slackware-14/slackware-is-systemd-inevitable-4175460337/page35.html#post4976314">http://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/slackware-14/slackware-is-systemd-inevitable-4175460337/page35.html#post4976314</a><br>
<br></div><div class="gmail_extra">These corporate wankers are stealing our revolution. Red Hat holds maintainership of stuff like udev and cgroups in trust for the whole community, and with that great power should come great responsibility. Meanwhile these developers all have what anyone on this mailing list would consider to be dream jobs, yet they are using them as a platform for corporate and personal advancement instead of listening to and giving back to the community that gave them the one big chance. It leaves open the question of whether senior Red Hat management is encouraging them, in pursuit of monopoly, or whether they are just fast asleep. Meanwhile, alas, Fedora belongs to the zombies now. Abandon it. <br>
<br></div><div class="gmail_extra">People criticise Canonical for not contributing to upstream projects, but hell fire, at least when Canonical go off on something vastly stupid (Mir) everybody sane can just ignore it. <br>
</div><div class="gmail_extra"><br></div><div class="gmail_extra">Thanks Nick for having the good sense and taste to be on the right side of the argument.<br></div><div class="gmail_extra">Me go lie down now.<br></div><div class="gmail_extra">
-D.<br></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><br><br></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On 29 October 2013 14:18, Nick Rhodes <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:nick@ngrhodes.co.uk" target="_blank">nick@ngrhodes.co.uk</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div><div><div><div>There is a bug report:<br><a href="http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=727708" target="_blank">http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=727708</a><br>
<br></div>There are debate wiki pages:<br>
<a href="https://wiki.debian.org/Debate/initsystem" target="_blank">https://wiki.debian.org/Debate/initsystem</a><br><br></div>But no-one is selling pop corn yet !<br><br></div>I can't even work out what Debian's requirements are for a replacement init system.<br>
<br></div><div>Anyhow my view so far:<br><br></div><div>I don't see the need for binary logs.<br>Reliable process start/stop is nice for systemd (cgroups based).<br></div><div>systemd is becoming like a blackhole kernel broker for all process/job/user/auth/connectivity management OF ALL THE USERSPACE THINGS !!<br>
<br></div><div>Upstream projects are already providing systemd configs.<br><br></div><div>Upstart is a surprisingly adequate product.<br><br></div><div>Upstart leaves gaps in core system functionality, needing patched versions of logind, soon dbus will go the same way. No upstream alternatives as Redhat continues to steam roller ALL OF THE USERSPACE THINGS into systemd.<br>
</div><div><br></div><div>I am sure others can comment on the intelligence, wit and charm of the respective systemd and Upstart developers and owners and of course should not be a factor in the choice ;)<br><br></div><div>
Cheers, Nick.<br></div><div><div><div><div><br></div></div></div></div></div>
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