<html><head><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body dir="auto"><div></div><div>One important point I forgot is that my point relates to allowing discussion about using open software that can be inspected for back doors, have strong encryption with no keys for anyone else, and the methods used by authorities and others to infiltrate and work around these, some of which Snowden uncovered.</div><div><br>On 21 Jan 2016, at 12:51, Nick Rhodes <<a href="mailto:nick@ngrhodes.co.uk">nick@ngrhodes.co.uk</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"><div></div><div>Hi,</div><div><br></div><div>This is a related topic. The documents in question were from Edward Snowden, whistleblowing on the USA and friends spying activities of which some have been ruled illegal. As 99% was technology based this is relevant as it brings into question our ability to be able to report on systems used for spying and illegal data collection activities.</div><div>We need to discuss these topics, moral and rights of how we should and shouldn't use technology and this includes talking about software licences, investigation and discovery of electronic devices for personal and research purposes (such as finding bugs and alternative uses). If we don't we will never bring into question the people and organisations we trust to look after us and be able to highlight any oversight or misjudgement or worst case blantant misuse of technology.</div><div><br></div><div>Cheers Nick</div><div><br>On 21 Jan 2016, at 12:12, Stephane Urdy <<a href="mailto:stephane.urdy@yourprog.com">stephane.urdy@yourprog.com</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div>
  
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    Hi Chaps,<br>
    <br>
    These are interesting topics.<br>
    Maybe I am wrong, but I thought this was a Linux related mailing
    list ?<br>
    <br>
    Kind regards,<br>
    <br>
    Stephane<br>
    <br>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 21/01/16 11:51, Robert Burrell
      Donkin wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote cite="mid:CAKTa1miQ2DRyAL5-CxvihgrDZFUxy5pR=3gWhxc2vCz9C2znTw@mail.gmail.com" type="cite">
      <div dir="ltr">
        <div>Today's it's spun as European Human Rights. Yesterday it
          would have been spun as the great tradition of British Press
          Freedom. Take your pick. <br>
          <br>
          At the expense of ruining a good story, the judgement (as
          opposed to the spin) upholds the government's actions but
          notes that the law is poorly drafted.<br>
          <br>
        </div>
        <div>During detention, there is no statuary mechanism for the
          detainee to admit that they have privileged original documents
          in their possession and to ask for a magistrate able to seal
          them to the court. This is both unreasonable and inequitable.
          <br>
          <br>
          The way these things are usually done are to obtain the
          services of a lawyer who arranges for them to be declared at
          customs. No one in the civil service seems to have considered
          that anyone would be stupid enough to attempt to smuggle
          original legal documents through 'nothing to declare'. <br>
          <br>
        </div>
        <div>My moral - don't play at being a spy. The British taking
          spying far too seriously, and are better at it than most.
          Detention is nothing much to be worried about. The time to
          worry is when the professional spooks invite you politely to
          leave through the special private exit (before customs,
          detention ot who have legally entered the country). During the
          troubles, if you knew where the door was, you could see them
          taking away folk out from Leeds-Bradford whose records would
          say they'd never boarded the plane in Ireland. <br>
          <br>
        </div>
        <div>For what it's worth, if you ever want to get documents out
          of the country without the British spying on you, just ask a
          frenemy to ship them FedEx. That's US of A, and they take care
          of their own.<br>
        </div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        Robert<br>
        <div>
          <div class="gmail_extra"><br>
            <div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Jan 20, 2016 at 10:40 AM,
              Brian A <span dir="ltr"><<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:bradlug@hackroyd.org.uk" target="_blank">bradlug@hackroyd.org.uk</a>></span>
              wrote:<br>
              <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
                0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
                rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
                <div>
                  <div style="color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:rgb(255,255,255);font-family:HelveticaNeue,Helvetica
                    Neue,Helvetica,Arial,Lucida
                    Grande,sans-serif;font-size:16px">
                    <div dir="ltr">U.K. Court, in David Miranda Case,
                      Rules Terrorism Act Violates Fundamental Rights of
                      Free Press</div>
                    <div dir="ltr"><br>
                    </div>
                    <div dir="ltr">As a background, for those who have
                      forgotten/not followed this: David Miranda is the
                      partner of Guardian journalist Glenn Greenwald who
                      interview Ed Snowden in Hong Kong.</div>
                    <div dir="ltr"><br>
                    </div>
                    <div dir="ltr">It is interesting to note that this
                      case was won because of the protection of the
                      European Convention of Human Rights. As I
                      understand it Cameron wants us out of European
                      Human Rights - so where would that leave us!</div>
                    <div dir="ltr"><br>
                    </div>
                    <div dir="ltr"><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="https://theintercept.com/2016/01/19/miranda-appeal-uk-terrorism-fundamental-rights-violated/" target="_blank">UK Court Rules Terrorism Act
                        Violates Fundamental Rights of Free Press</a><br>
                    </div>
                    <div style="width:450px;font-family:"Georgia","Times","Times
                      New
Roman","serif";margin-top:5px;margin-bottom:5px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
                      <table style="width:450px;height:170px;display:block" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0">
                        <tbody>
                          <tr>
                            <td colspan="8" style="height:1px;background-color:rgb(229,229,229);font-size:1px;border-collapse:collapse">
                              <div style="min-height:1px;background-color:rgb(229,229,229);font-size:1px;line-height:0px"> </div>
                            </td>
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                            <td rowspan="5" style="width:1px;background-color:rgb(229,229,229);font-size:1pt;border-collapse:collapse">
                              <div style="width:1px;background-color:rgb(229,229,229);font-size:1pt"> </div>
                            </td>
                            <td rowspan="5" style="vertical-align:middle;width:168px;height:168px;border-collapse:collapse;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
                              <div style="width:168px" align="center"><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="https://theintercept.com/2016/01/19/miranda-appeal-uk-terrorism-fundamental-rights-violated/" style="text-decoration:none!important;color:rgb(0,0,0)!important" target="_blank"><img moz-do-not-send="true" alt="image" src="https://s.yimg.com/vv//api/res/1.2/tBUuX894M_JIU5csV4gwMg--/YXBwaWQ9bWFpbDtmaT1maWxsO2g9MTY4O3c9MTY4/https://prod01-cdn05.cdn.firstlook.org/wp-uploads/sites/1/2016/01/AP_256267949210-feature-hero.jpg.cf.jpg" style="display: block; margin:
                                    auto;" height="168" width="168"></a></div>
                            </td>
                            <td rowspan="5" style="width:1px;background-color:rgb(229,229,229);font-size:0pt;border-collapse:collapse">
                              <div style="width:1px;background-color:rgb(229,229,229);font-size:1pt"> </div>
                            </td>
                            <td rowspan="5" style="width:14px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);font-size:0pt;border-collapse:collapse">
                              <div style="width:14px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);font-size:14pt"> </div>
                            </td>
                            <td colspan="2" style="height:6px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);font-size:0pt;border-collapse:collapse">
                              <div style="min-height:6px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);font-size:6pt"> </div>
                            </td>
                            <td rowspan="5" style="width:20px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);font-size:0pt;border-collapse:collapse">
                              <div style="width:20px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);font-size:20pt"> </div>
                            </td>
                            <td rowspan="5" style="width:1px;background-color:rgb(229,229,229);font-size:1pt;border-collapse:collapse" width="1">
                              <div style="width:1px;background-color:rgb(229,229,229);font-size:1pt"> </div>
                            </td>
                          </tr>
                          <tr>
                            <td colspan="2" style="width:100%;vertical-align:middle;font-family:"Georgia","Times","Times
                              New Roman","serif"">
                              <div style="line-height:16.5px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);min-height:135px;width:245px">
                                <div style="word-wrap:break-word"><span></span><span></span><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="https://theintercept.com/2016/01/19/miranda-appeal-uk-terrorism-fundamental-rights-violated/" style="text-decoration:none!important;color:rgb(0,0,0)!important;line-height:100%;font-size:18px;display:block" target="_blank"><span style="margin:0px 0px
3px;font-weight:normal;font-size:18px;line-height:21px;max-height:43px;color:rgb(0,0,0);overflow:hidden!important;display:inline-block">UK
                                      Court Rules Terrorism Act Violates
                                      Fundamental Rights...</span></a>
                                  <div style="font-size:13px;line-height:20px;color:rgb(153,153,153);max-height:81px;font-family:"Georgia","Times","Times
                                    New
                                    Roman","serif";overflow:hidden">The
                                    court ruled that the UK's laws
                                    breach rights in case involving
                                    seizure of documents from the
                                    partner of Intercept co-founder
                                    Glenn Greenwald.</div>
                                </div>
                              </div>
                            </td>
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                            <td colspan="2" style="height:4px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);font-size:0pt;border-collapse:collapse"><br>
                            </td>
                          </tr>
                          <tr>
                            <td style="vertical-align:middle;font-family:"Arial","Helvetica
Neue","Helvetica","sans-serif"">
                              <div style="font-size:0pt"><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="https://theintercept.com/2016/01/19/miranda-appeal-uk-terrorism-fundamental-rights-violated/" style="color:black;text-decoration:none!important" target="_blank"><span style="display:inline-block;line-height:11px;max-width:145px;min-width:85px;overflow:hidden;max-height:13px"><span style="vertical-align:middle;font-size:9px;line-height:11px;color:rgb(153,153,153)">View
                                      on <span style="font-weight:bold">theintercept.com</span></span></span></a></div>
                            </td>
                            <td style="vertical-align:middle;width:100px;font-family:"Arial","Helvetica
Neue","Helvetica","sans-serif"">
                              <div style="max-width:100px;min-width:80px;overflow:hidden;text-align:right;line-height:11px;max-height:13px;font-size:0pt"><span style="vertical-align:middle;font-size:9px;line-height:11px;color:rgb(153,153,153)">Preview
                                  by Yahoo</span></div>
                            </td>
                          </tr>
                          <tr>
                            <td colspan="2" style="height:9px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);font-size:0pt;border-collapse:collapse"><br>
                            </td>
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                            <td colspan="8" style="height:1px;background-color:rgb(229,229,229);font-size:1px;border-collapse:collapse">
                              <div style="min-height:1px;background-color:rgb(229,229,229);font-size:1px;line-height:0px"> </div>
                            </td>
                          </tr>
                        </tbody>
                      </table>
                    </div>
                    <span class=""><font color="#888888">
                        <div><br>
                        </div>
                        <div>Brian</div>
                      </font></span></div>
                </div>
                <br>
                _______________________________________________<br>
                Bradford mailing list<br>
                <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:Bradford@mailman.lug.org.uk">Bradford@mailman.lug.org.uk</a><br>
                <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="https://mailman.lug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/bradford" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://mailman.lug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/bradford</a><br>
                <br>
              </blockquote>
            </div>
            <br>
          </div>
        </div>
      </div>
      <br>
      <fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
      <br>
      <pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
Bradford mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Bradford@mailman.lug.org.uk">Bradford@mailman.lug.org.uk</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://mailman.lug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/bradford">https://mailman.lug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/bradford</a>
</pre>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    <pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">-- 

Cheers,

Stephane

Nulld1g1t Blog:
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.yourprog.com">http://www.yourprog.com</a>

Nulld1g1t Youtube channel:
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.youtube.com/user/nulld1g1t">http://www.youtube.com/user/nulld1g1t</a></pre>
  

</div></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><div><0x3262C0DA.asc></div></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><div><span>_______________________________________________</span><br><span>Bradford mailing list</span><br><span><a href="mailto:Bradford@mailman.lug.org.uk">Bradford@mailman.lug.org.uk</a></span><br><span><a href="https://mailman.lug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/bradford">https://mailman.lug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/bradford</a></span><br></div></blockquote></div></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><div><span>_______________________________________________</span><br><span>Bradford mailing list</span><br><span><a href="mailto:Bradford@mailman.lug.org.uk">Bradford@mailman.lug.org.uk</a></span><br><span><a href="https://mailman.lug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/bradford">https://mailman.lug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/bradford</a></span><br></div></blockquote></body></html>