[dundee] [jtsmoore@revolution-os.com: Re: Screening of Revolution OS]

[Mark Harrigan]

On Sat, Jul 19, 2003 at 05:57:44PM +0100, Andrew Clayton wrote:
> On Sat, 2003-07-19 at 16:34, Mark Harrigan wrote:
> > On Sat, Jul 19, 2003 at 01:32:57AM +0100, Andrew Clayton wrote:
> > > 
> > > Personally, I started using Linux, because I wanted to run UNIX on my
> > > PC. It grew from there....
> > > 
> > I'd say that's my real reason too but that's kinda wanting to really
> > understand how the computer works... or should work.
> > 
> > <snip>
> > > > can't be bothered to learn a little?! People should stay in their own little
> > > > controlled world without sharp edges and potholes in that case.
> > > > 
> > > 
> > > Which is why it's good to have the likes of SuSE, Red Hat, Mandrake and
> > > Connectiva around. They pay people to do the stuff that other hackers
> > > don't want to do. e.g docs, nicey nicey stuff etc
> > > 
> > > Also having the likes of IBM/HP/Oracle/SAP/CA  and many others, on board
> > > will only help this situation.
> > > 
> > Now this I find interesting, yes these fine companies do invest in
> > Linux but I don't see any that really invest in the user
> > experience. 
> > 
> > Redhat funds some Kernel work and developer side stuff for
> > Gnome especially work on ORBit the CORBA base behind Gnome's
> > architecture. Nothing directly user orientated.
> > 
> 
> gtk, bluecurve if you will, lots of stuff really...
Bluecurve is for Redhat no-one else, the rest is libraries, not
directly user orientated.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> > SuSE works on server side stuff like the OS/390 port and Opteron
> > support. Nope.
> > 
> 
> KDE
> 
okay
> 
> > Mandrake have a list of stuff they develop down the side of their home
> > page most of which is developer or high performance server
> > orientated. Don't think so.
> > 
> 
> GUI admin stuff
> 
Hello I'm a home user, what's an admin?
> 
> > Connectiva is hard to find out about but I'd assume they would help
> > Gnome in some way so they should be a good example. Maybe but I
> > couldn't find anything, didn't look very hard mind.
> > 
> 
> Internationalisation, GUI stuff...
> 
> 
> > IBM, HP, Oracle, SAP and CA... I have a strange feeling this is all
> > very server side.
> > 
> 
> What directly effects the server will indirectly effect the desktop...
> look at the 2.6 kernel, a lot of the scalability work, will also help
> the desktop and smaller systems.
> 
> I'm pretty sure HP have deals with Ximian and CA also IIRC.
> 
> And just to not forget... Ximian....
> 
> Oh yeah and Sun, all the GNOME usability and access stuff....
> 
> 
> 
> > I agree that the application side is coming on very well but it's
> > still not intended for "Mr Average" when installed they look and work
> > in a way that will appeal to the average user but the install is
> > pretty daunting. What the hell are partitions? I only have a hard
> 
> I say again... Linux (generally) is NO harder than Windows to install.
> 
Then I disagree. I think you're ignoring the fact that you are much
more knowledgable than the average user.
> 
> > disk? I've just bought a new graphics card/modem/cheap piece of
> > generic Taiwanese junk how do I install it? Taking the case off freaks
> > these people out enough, you then expect them to find out the chipset
> > their particular card has, find out if it has a driver, recompile the
> 
> What about windows, default install, your running in 640x480, 256
> colors, I mean c'mmon,
> 
> Oh and you'll need to download the nic driver before you can get on the
> network... hmm, ok, modem, shit, needs a fscking driver....
> 
Kernel recompile or new version of X or whatever vs download a driver?
> 
> > kernel or modify XFree86? Not gonna happen. I want a piece of software
> 
> XFree86... well, it is really a fine piece of software when you think
> about it. Currently it's just lacking funding... 
> 
> XFree86 autoconfiguration has been talked about and is already somewhat
> been done with kdrive.
> 
Yeah I'm talking about the home user, they will buy hardware from PC
World and expect it to work, unless they update the OS everyday they
most likely will buy something too new to support.
>  
> Kernel.. well they can stick with the vendor kernel...
> 
How do you add a driver? Recompile the kernel, that's scarey. Find a
Windows user and make them watch you compile a kernel. It's hilarious.

And loading a precompiled module, but it has to match the kernel to
guarantee stability, 2.2, 2,4, 2.5, Vanilla, Redhat, Mandrake, AC?
> 
> > to do whatever, do I need the source, rpm or deb? How do I use these
> > files? Why isn't the latest version with magic feature A available for
> > my pc? You mean there's different platforms? I thought it was
> > all Linux? 
> > 
> > The only way to get around this is to change the architecture
> > significantly as Apple have done. XFree86... out the door, kernel
> 
> XFree86/X11 won't be going anywhere soon, this has been discussed to
> death on forum@xfree86.org.
> 
Yeah I know and this is why Linux won't suit the home user for a long time.
> 
> > modification... gone, choice of desktop... nope, standard Unix
> > filesystem, no no no. The minute a big distro comes out like that
> > every Linux guru will be on Slashdot/Linuxnews calling it an
> > abomination that is against everything they've ever fought for. I
> > realise that gobolinux does the filesystem but that's a small
> > component.
> 
> hmm... it's called windows....
> 
Exactly.

> 
> > Note I say A Distro, there can't be more than one, companies won't
> > sell identical distros because there's nothing to differentiate them
> > from the crowd and users won't stand for differences, look at the Unix
> > market of the 1980's to see why.
> > 
> 
> Multiple distros are a Good Thing(tm), this is totally different to the
> fragmentation of Unix; can you say GPL? 
> 
What has the license got to do with this? I'm talking about getting
the system to a state where there's no confusion moving between
machines. Walk into a new office and use a pc sitting there without
needing to relearn, which is what people want.

And quite how the GPL is supposed to stop fragmentation? Emacs vs XEmacs?
> 
> > Unix was meant to be powerful, no-one ever said it should be easy, Linux
> 
> err, yeah.. exactly...
> 
> 
> > was created as a replica of that. The only reason Linux has these nice
> > looking apps is that nerds like shininess as much as power.
> > 
> 
> Again this is where the likes of Red Hat, Ximian, SuSE and others come
> in... they fund a lot of this "shininess".

Shininess is not usability and familiarity. Take a Mac user and place
in front of a Windows PC, do the reverse. They don't like it do
they? Now what's the difference between that and lots of different
distros with different desktops and different styles?

I think Linux and Open Source are great things but I also think that
the people who think it's ready for the desktop are way off. There's a
superiority complex that what they have is nice and reliable compared
to that silly Windows stuff. Microsoft are not stupid, they have some
of the most intelligent people in their field working for them, they
decided that absolute power and control was not essential but that
making a system work for most of the people most of the time was and
if that person wanted a new toy for their computer it would be
simple for them to add it. Simplicity like that comes at a price,
reliability and control. If you think it's purely because Microsoft
people don't care that we get crashes and problems I think you're
very very wrong. Software that easy is very hard to do.

Until Linux is prepared to give up it's freedoms of choice at every
level, they won't compete against Microsoft on the desktop and to be
perfectly honest if that's the cost of beating Microsoft I'm perfectly
happy as is.

Not everyones a computer enthusiast so I don't think that it's
unreasonable that they pay money if they don't want to work at it. I
also think that people are perfectly welcome to keep their code to
themselves, it has nothing to do with anyone else what they do with
it. I wish they'd give it out but I can't force them. BTW that's not
the same as supporting software patents.

Can anyone tell me why they think normal people will learn all this
complex software?

Mark