[Klug-general] Interactive Websites

Fri Dec 15 15:55:07 GMT 2006

On 15/12/06, Karl Lattimer <karl at qdh.org.uk> wrote:
> On Fri, 2006-12-15 at 14:43 +0000, Peter Childs wrote:
> > I've been find the right tool to write a good web site for nearly 10
> > years. Its not got easier if anything its got more complicated and
> > harder as more and more features get added.
>
> More features != complexity
>
> > I'm quite happy to use any tools but I'm yet to find one which
> > actually works well or is easy to use by a none comptuer hack.
>
> Dreamweaver - ideal for people just starting out.
>
> > True the new feature like css and ajax make it better for the end user
> > but the developer still has to cope with 3 different browsers that
> > work complely different and use 2 different scripting languages
> > (Javascript and DHTML)
>
> WRONG! Javascript == DHTML Javascript puts the D in HTML

Nope DHTML = Microsofts Idea of Javascript
Javascript = Mozillia, Netscape who created Javascipt orignally.

They were the same if they were what works in IE would work in
Firefox. DHTML can also include VBScript if you feel like writing code
that will only work in IE!

>
> > several differnt dialects of HTML/XHTML and CSS
> > which is not even XML complient.
>
> CSS compliant with XML BAH!, I expect you're completely ignorant of the
> total structure of CSS, if you look into how much it can do, then you'll
> find that its the way it is for a really good reason, for instance XML
> could only apply to one or two XML elements.

But why could they not structure it in XML so that least you only had
to learn one way to structure a file!. I'm sure I could come up with a
DTD that would make an XML version capapble of doing EVERYTHING in
CSS. I expect you are not sure exactly how flexable XML really is.

>
> > There are always more than 3 ways to do things and different one of
> > thouse 3 ways will work on a different client front end.
>
> You really are over-confusing what is a very simple situation, the only
> erroneous browser to the CSS/JS standards is internet explorer, and
> version 7 is much better at this.
>

Unfortunately over 50% of the population use IE by not making you
application IE compliant to lose half you audience.

> > If you want to create a website that is going to work on every browser
> > since Netscape 2.2 and yet still use bleeding edge methods when they
> > are available you are out of luck.
>
> No, you're lazy and dumb. + The bleeding edge technology didn't exist in
> NS2.2

What I mean is a website that works in NS2.2 but works better and uses
bleeding edge facilities when they are available ie in Firefox 2. You
can't force you uses the latest browsers.

>
> > I like Dreamweaver its just a shame I can't get anyone to get me a
> > licence and its non Linux compatable unless I emulate which would
> > probably break the licence aggreement
>
> WINE IS NOT AN EMULATOR!!!!!! FFS WHEN WILL PEOPLE LEARN THIS, ITS
> SERIOUSLY LIKE WATCHING PEOPLE SLAM SQUARE PEGS INTO ROUND HOLES. WINE
> DOES NOT EMULATE IT CREATES AN INTERMEDIATE COMPATIBILITY LAYER!!!!!
>

I know that but most people will call it an emulator it works like
one, it feels like one, it even has the word in its name. Its an
internal technical issue that its not. It enables me to "emulate " a
windows environment using linux libraries therefore it is an emulator.
The fact that its more of a translator than an emulator is not the
point. To most people it emulates windows for linux there for people
will call it an emulator even if its not. Most people are not
interested in technical details they are interested in what it does
which is allows me to run windows program on linux and there for
"emulate" an environment they can run in. In fact Wine is just as much
an emulator as Java is but I've never yet heard people call Java an
emulator.

Peter Childs

> wine does not break any license agreement with macromedia/adobe, in fact
> the developers want us to try this stuff out and tell them how to make
> it better for them. This argument is completely redundant now, software
> companies cannot stipulate the target platform unless the customer asks
> for a refund because the product doesn't work.
>
> I think you've blasted yourself with too much terminology too quickly
> and you can't keep up with it, start with something simple like.
>
> <div>
> Hello World
> </div>
>
>
> K,
>
> > Peter.
> >
> >
> > On 15/12/06, Karl Lattimer <karl at qdh.org.uk> wrote:
> > > > Sorry if this felt like a flame, It was not meant as such.
> > >
> > > I didn't take it as such, I just think that the recent developments to
> > > advance the web technology, the >redesign< of the web including
> > > javascript2, css2 and XHTML are simple technologies which plug together
> > > in superior ways to HTML 1.1 and javascript 1.2
> > >
> > > To rant about it is to not be heard, the technology works and is proven!
> > >
> > > The redesign is ongoing and is an evolution of technology, you need to
> > > remember this and stay upto date with changes.
> > >
> > > FYI, CSS2 supports fully WAI standards for output including speech
> > > synthesis. This was mentioned as an ongoing thing, but any CSS2
> > > compliant browser on a machine with a speech synthesiser can already do
> > > this (although I'm not sure on the gnome status of WAI with festival)
> > >
> > > > I just
> > > > don't think the web sould need every writer for it to achieve and
> > > > entry level of geek before they can put up a well formated page that
> > > > says "Hello World"
> > >
> > > http://www.adobe.com/dreamweaver - Works with wine (and supported by
> > > wine-doors)
> > >
> > > http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/frontpage/default.aspx - For heathens
> > >
> > > Bluefish, scream, quanta and for _REAL_ men eclipse + phpeclipse +
> > > jseclipse
> > >
> > > For those of you who are wondering what I use, I combine, dreamweaver
> > > for layout and styling with eclipse for large volumes of php code and
> > > also jseclipse for javascript and AJAX. I use eclipse and PyDEV for
> > > wine-doors, freevo and other Python code, and eclipse-cdt for gnome-dock
> > > and other C/C++ projects, and for those of you REALLY interested in my
> > > tool chain, I use glade-2 for gtk user interface design, and I'm looking
> > > forward to seeing Glade3 becoming mainstream.
> > >
> > > K,
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Kent mailing list
> > > Kent at mailman.lug.org.uk
> > > https://mailman.lug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/kent
> > >
> >
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> >
>
>
>
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