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Colin,<BR>
<BR>
Same here - I use data side more than anything!<BR>
<BR>
I use a MDA Vario II (really a HTC Hermes/TyTn) with T-Mobile (+ Web'n'Walk Plus)... Liking it so far, quite useful for data as it's a fairly decent bandwidth usage for a phone (you can use it as a tethered modem too, only if you don't upgrade to WM6 - They've removed DUN and replaced it with 'Internet Sharing'... Can't use it on Linux anymore :()<BR>
<BR>
That being said, I'm changing a bit... I'm moving onto a 'standard' phone with bluetooth and using a Nokia 770 for internet access (has a decent 4.1 screen, debian-based and opera (with flash) browser). Perfect for my needs!<BR>
<BR>
~ Tom<BR>
<BR>
On Fri, 2007-07-13 at 07:34 +0100, Colin McCarthy wrote:<BR>
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<FONT COLOR="#000000">On 7/12/07, </FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000"><B>J D Freeman</B></FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000"> <<A HREF="mailto:dt@quixotic.org.uk">dt@quixotic.org.uk</A>> wrote:</FONT><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE>
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<FONT COLOR="#000000">On Thu, Jul 12, 2007 at 04:06:35PM +0100, Karl Lattimer wrote:</FONT><BR>
<FONT COLOR="#000000">> Yep nokia is your best bet. OpenMoko just isn't mature enough, and I</FONT><BR>
<FONT COLOR="#000000">> don't think it actually has opensync or syncml support yet. </FONT><BR>
<BR>
<FONT COLOR="#000000">Hold on, is that you agreeing with me?</FONT><BR>
<BR>
<FONT COLOR="#000000">> > Linux is a general purpose OS</FONT><BR>
<FONT COLOR="#000000">> > which works well on general purpose computers,</FONT><BR>
<FONT COLOR="#000000">> "</FONT><BR>
<FONT COLOR="#000000">></FONT><BR>
<FONT COLOR="#000000">> That's a logical fallacy if ever I saw one! Just because Linux is a </FONT><BR>
<FONT COLOR="#000000">> general purpose OS doesn't mean it should be used on general purpose</FONT><BR>
<FONT COLOR="#000000">> computers.</FONT><BR>
<FONT COLOR="#000000">></FONT><BR>
<FONT COLOR="#000000">> In point of fact, general purpose OS generally means something which can</FONT><BR>
<FONT COLOR="#000000">> easily be transported across architectures. </FONT><BR>
<BR>
<FONT COLOR="#000000">Yes, which means it can do many things to a varying degree, but not</FONT><BR>
<FONT COLOR="#000000">necessarily do any of them well. Compare contrast: Leatherman,</FONT><BR>
<FONT COLOR="#000000">lindstroom wire cutters.</FONT><BR>
<BR>
<FONT COLOR="#000000">> > Whilst its not open source (boo his) Epoc is a </FONT><BR>
<FONT COLOR="#000000">> > far better OS for this sort of platform. That said I quite like VX works</FONT><BR>
<FONT COLOR="#000000">> > for embedded stuff, but thats mainly cos its very well tried and tested</FONT><BR>
<FONT COLOR="#000000">> > (hint the two nasa mars rovers run on it IIRC). </FONT><BR>
<FONT COLOR="#000000">></FONT><BR>
<FONT COLOR="#000000">> WRT VXworks and Epoc, Epoc isn't exactly alive is it, last release IIRC</FONT><BR>
<FONT COLOR="#000000">> was in 2003 running on the psion revo. Which was actually a general</FONT><BR>
<FONT COLOR="#000000">> purpose computer built on a OS which was designed for low power embedded </FONT><BR>
<FONT COLOR="#000000">> applications, doesn't have a full API stack, you must re-invent the</FONT><BR>
<FONT COLOR="#000000">> wheel in order to get much custom stuff working on it. Do they even sell</FONT><BR>
<FONT COLOR="#000000">> licenses for Epoc32 anymore? As PSION are out of business and Symbian is </FONT><BR>
<FONT COLOR="#000000">> the evolved version of Epoc.</FONT><BR>
<BR>
<FONT COLOR="#000000">Sorry, thats me being an old fart again, epoc is now called symbian. Its</FONT><BR>
<FONT COLOR="#000000">worth noting that Psion are still in business, just not selling to the</FONT><BR>
<FONT COLOR="#000000">consumer.</FONT><BR>
<BR>
<FONT COLOR="#000000">As for the full API, that is both a feature and a bug. Depending on how </FONT><BR>
<FONT COLOR="#000000">you want to look at it.</FONT><BR>
<BR>
<FONT COLOR="#000000">> VXworks is even worse, a friend of mine who works with both ucLinux,</FONT><BR>
<FONT COLOR="#000000">> Linux 2.6 for embedded and VXworks daily does nothing but complain about</FONT><BR>
<FONT COLOR="#000000">> how many missing kernel level and user space API's there are. For </FONT><BR>
<FONT COLOR="#000000">> instance you'll find that there is no such thing as libc on VXworks,</FONT><BR>
<FONT COLOR="#000000">> they have a base library set, but it doesn't cut the mustard. VXworks is</FONT><BR>
<FONT COLOR="#000000">> crippleware essentially which means the developer needs to do a lot more </FONT><BR>
<FONT COLOR="#000000">> work in order to get something running.</FONT><BR>
<BR>
<FONT COLOR="#000000">Again, feature or bug. If you are using VXworks on something, like say a</FONT><BR>
<FONT COLOR="#000000">robot or a highly embedded system, you probably don't want to be using a</FONT><BR>
<FONT COLOR="#000000">general libc the performance (bare in mind many things are going to be </FONT><BR>
<FONT COLOR="#000000">real time) doesnt cut it.</FONT><BR>
<BR>
<FONT COLOR="#000000">Horses for courses.</FONT><BR>
<BR>
<FONT COLOR="#000000">> Compare this with Linux running on embedded devices, Linux has an</FONT><BR>
<FONT COLOR="#000000">> enormous library of tools and apis which can be implemented by a</FONT><BR>
<FONT COLOR="#000000">> programmer on any platform thanks to GCC/glibc and the way the Linux </FONT><BR>
<FONT COLOR="#000000">> kernel is developed.</FONT><BR>
<BR>
<FONT COLOR="#000000">Yes, an enormous library. Thats really useful on my embedded sytem with</FONT><BR>
<FONT COLOR="#000000">half a meg of ram.</FONT><BR>
<BR>
<FONT COLOR="#000000">> With all that said, 80% of new photocopiers run Linux, 80% of network</FONT><BR>
<FONT COLOR="#000000">> printers run linux, 80% of soho routers run linux. Thats the 80/20 rule </FONT><BR>
<FONT COLOR="#000000">> for you, with a larger developer community, a larger API stack, many</FONT><BR>
<FONT COLOR="#000000">> embedded device stack elements etc... I think that its a better bet for</FONT><BR>
<FONT COLOR="#000000">> Linux to run on all hardware than VXworks or Epoc and I think you'll </FONT><BR>
<FONT COLOR="#000000">> find that 8 out of 10 developer cats agree.</FONT><BR>
<BR>
<FONT COLOR="#000000">And how many desktop machines run windows? Just cos many people do it</FONT><BR>
<FONT COLOR="#000000">doesn't mean its the best way of doing it.</FONT><BR>
<BR>
<FONT COLOR="#000000">J</FONT><BR>
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<FONT COLOR="#000000">BlackKitty</FONT><BR>
<FONT COLOR="#000000">FYI I had to approve your last message as posted from your non KLUG approved email address. </FONT><BR>
<BR>
<FONT COLOR="#000000">As for 'Cool Mobile Phone' and Linux, Kevin posted about his experience with Sony Ericsson phones back in April. <A HREF="http://mailman.lug.org.uk/pipermail/kent/2007-April/002405.html">http://mailman.lug.org.uk/pipermail/kent/2007-April/002405.html</A> SE phones are good and do that 'killler phone call application' well so might be a good option for you Dan.</FONT><BR>
<BR>
<FONT COLOR="#000000">Personally I would go with a phone and carrier that does good data plans and has a good data phone, like a Windows Mobile device. But I like mobile data more than voice :-) </FONT><BR>
<BR>
<FONT COLOR="#000000">Colin</FONT>
<PRE>
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