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<div class=Section1>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span lang=EN-US
style='font-size:10.0pt;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>-----Original Message-----<br>
From: scarborough-bounces@mailman.lug.org.uk
[mailto:scarborough-bounces@mailman.lug.org.uk] On Behalf Of Stephen O'Neill<br>
Sent: 20 April 2005 09:03<br>
To: Scarborough Linux User Group<br>
Subject: Re: [SLUG] OT: Browse the net super quick..</span><o:p></o:p></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>Ian Eade wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>>Anyhow, I take it Steve that you are a fan of JSP and such like? I
have<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>>nothing against it and yes it has some great capabilities, my
analogy of<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>>speed was merely a passing comment and not intended to cause any<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>>offence. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>><span style='mso-spacerun:yes'> </span><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>No offence caused, I'm not a fan per sé but I've equally learnt through
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>~work experience~ that you can't just say something's crap and never <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>touch it again - as you said, certain tools fit certain needs.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>>However I find a lot of JAVA technology (generic banding together
of<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>>technologies) to be a reinvention of the wheel (from work
experience),<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>><span style='mso-spacerun:yes'> </span><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>How do you mean that it's a reinvention of the wheel?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 color=blue face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;color:blue'>Maybe not the best description and not easy
to provide arguments for and against. Maybe best to start a new thread or two
on the merits and otherwise of various like for like technologies. In this case
“like for like” not necessarily being the technologies themselves
but their intended usage and end goals. So who has used what technologies and
what are the <span class=GramE>pro’s</span> and con’s?</span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>>The hammondgallery.co.uk site did present usable content but this<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>>exercise proves that visiting the vast majority of websites with
text<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>>only presentation is an academic exercise, aside from testing the
only<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>>real use would be for blogs and forum boards etc where content<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>>deliverance is clearly secondary to content presentation.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>><span style='mso-spacerun:yes'> </span><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>Interesting. I presume that you're not an advocate for separating <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>content from presentation with CSS? (aside from the technical <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>implications, I'm talking purely about the principle).<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 color=blue face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;color:blue'>Not entirely sure how you arrived at this
presumption, however I am in favour of separating content, presentation and
logic using CSS and server side technologies. The use of text only content deliverance
can only be of practical use when the target is primarily text based, such as <span
class=SpellE>blogs</span> and forums.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 color=blue face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;color:blue'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 color=blue face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;color:blue'>The original users of text only browsers (Lynx
etc) did not have to contend with art galleries, nested tables, layers, JS
menus and a whole load more visually orientated content/presentation. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 color=blue face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;color:blue'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 color=blue face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;color:blue'>As an improvement for browsing speed I have
my firewall strip out as many images as it can (especially banner adverts) and
find that the presentation on web pages remains largely remains the same. Not
as drastic as a text only browser but a good compromise between speed and
presentation.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 color=blue face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;color:blue'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>>The menu on hammondgallery.co.uk is JS but is duplicated in plain
text<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>>and should cater for all users, <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>Ah, that'll be that plain text list of links buried in the middle of
the <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>content? :P<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>RFE: can we have a flashing neon sign please? Oh, no, wait..
flashing... <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>hmmm, another can of usability worms.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 color=blue face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;color:blue'>When trying to get a website which relies
heavily on the graphics to provide the content then removing the graphics there
will be little left but a pile of text links. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 color=blue face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;color:blue'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 color=blue face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;color:blue'>Usability is like nailing jelly to a wall,
you make think you’ve got it but in practice <span class=GramE>its</span>
never really finished.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 color=blue face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;color:blue'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 color=blue face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;color:blue'>Anyone come across the “user centric
design methodology”?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 color=blue face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;color:blue'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 color=blue face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;color:blue'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>>however the more idiot proof you build<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>>something the better the idiot gets!<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>><span style='mso-spacerun:yes'> </span><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>Are you calling me an idiot?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 color=blue face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;color:blue'>Buy no means, it comes from the axiom:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 color=blue face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;color:blue'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 color=blue face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;color:blue'>“The more idiot proof you build
something the better the class of idiot”<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 color=blue face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;color:blue'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><span class=GramE><font size=2 color=blue
face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:blue'>and</span></font></span><font
color=blue><span style='color:blue'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 color=blue face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;color:blue'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 color=blue face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;color:blue'>“You have to build a system to cater
for the lowest common idiot” <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 color=blue face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;color:blue'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 color=blue face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;color:blue'>Would you agree that you cannot build a
system which caters ideally for a novice user and for an advanced user?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>>And thank you for thinking that I am special, but why does that
entitle<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>>me to double emails?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>><span style='mso-spacerun:yes'> </span><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>You were clearly chosen by God - and it's not for us to question his <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>mysterious ways.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 color=blue face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;color:blue'>I thought that <span class=GramE>was</span>
the new pope and I bet he does not get duplicated emails through his holy inbox?
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 color=blue face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;color:blue'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 color=blue face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;color:blue'>Ian</span></font><font color=black><span
style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>Steve<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>-- <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
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