[dundee] [jtsmoore@revolution-os.com: Re: Screening of Revolution OS]

[Andrew Clayton]

On Sat, 2003-07-19 at 14:59, Mark Harrigan wrote:
> Note I've snipped out bits of the quoted irc conversation for space
> reasons. I don't think I've changed the meanings of what was said.
> 
> On Sat, Jul 19, 2003 at 12:13:53AM +0100, Jonathan Riddell wrote: 
> > I don't see why it wouldn't be intended for average desktop users.
> > It's certainly heading in that direction.
> > 
> 00:33 <@mharrigan> average desktop user... it's not meant for them
> 		   because average users don't like choice, it scares and
> 		   confuses them, lots of people can't deal with the
> 		   fact that their IE icon isn't on the desktop
> 		   because they deleted it. Well you can have KDE or
> 		   Gnome or Blackbox or Enlightenment or XFCE 
>                    or ... Web browser, well there's netscape and
> 		   mozilla and firebird and konquerer and...

I have a hard time understanding this.... to me, choice seems like one
of the fundamental governances of humanity, along with freedom.


If you choose to only use e.g $DESKTOP/$BROWSER/$MAILCLIENT/$EDITOR etc
and never use any other alternatives, then fair enough, at least you
have the choice.

I also don't like the way Ximian GNOME is heading and don't use it
anymore, they are removing options left right and centre. RH8.0 with
GNOME/Metacity has removed a good few functionalities. I'm still running
RH 7.1/7.3 and Debian 3.0r1 on my box's. My mum's box has RH8.0.

Don't know if vanilla GNOME is heading the same direction as Ximians?
I'd hope not.

These days I'm using Enlightenment.


Of course the fact you have say multiple web browsers also helps with
those sites that have e.g borked javascript and won't work under
Mozilla/Galeon/etc but will work under Netscape 4.x and perhaps Opera.
 
So with this choice you get backups... if your prefered option is having
trouble, you can can try something else.. your not left up shit creak
without a paddle.


> 00:35 <Riddell> well most distributions have a default option
> 00:35 <Riddell> and have you seen the colour themes some secretarial types set 
>                 their windows desktops to, some people like choice a bit too 
>                 much
> 00:36 <@mharrigan> yeah but it's still windows and everythings in the same 
>                    place, it just looks horrific

Which I'd say is true of KDE, which is the most windows like, IMHO. 


> 00:37 <@mharrigan> plus the fact that most distro have a default is fine but 
>                    what if you go where someone has a default that's not what 
>                    you have?

Common sense, inituitive, which sadly often seems lacking these
days...oh and man of course ;)


> 00:37 <@mharrigan> scares people
> 00:38 <Riddell> well the sooner GNOME people realise they should all
> 		be using KDE the better really

Heh, lets not go there... ironic though, when were looking for choice,
you would just have everyone use KDE ;) Personally given the choice
between GNOME and KDE, I'd go with GNOME every time.



> 00:38 <@mharrigan> and the sooner the KDE people learn not to suck ass
> 		   the better
> 00:38 <@mharrigan> http://62.31.89.31/~mharrigan/screenshot-17-07-2003.png
> 00:38 <@mharrigan> ;)
> 00:39 <Riddell> ooh, oh yeah...I'll bet you're a vi user
> 00:39 <@mharrigan> emacs
> 00:39 <@mharrigan> :)
> 00:39 <Riddell> that's OK then
> 00:39 <@mharrigan> wahey!
>  

Well I use both.. ;) Though these days it tends to be more vi.


> > > I don't know why there's this fascination with taking on
> > > Microsoft. 
> >

I think it's more standing up and fighting for your freedom/choice and
digital rights, which M& just happens to the most visible and abusive
of.


>  
> > Besides the reasons already mentioned in this discussion, Microsoft is
> > an abusive monopoly.
> > 
> 
> 00:30 <@mharrigan> the abusive monopoly thing I agree with however I think 
>                    people should get on with their lives, crazed
> 		   zealotry about Microsoft will only put people off... as will
> 		   elitism but see if I care
> 00:30 <@mharrigan> ;)
> 
> > > Only impassioned people use Linux atm
> > 
> > Well, my Mum uses it as well.
> > 
> 00:26 <@mharrigan> out of interest who setup the computer that you
> mother uses?
> 00:27 <Riddell> ah, ye got me.  it was me
> 

Well I set my Mum's machine up as well, currently RH8.0 with KDE,
Mozilla, Evolution, GIMP, XMMS, grip, StarOffice etc.

But whats the point here? If she was using Windows, would she have had
to install and set that up herself, no, it would have already been done.

IMO, Linux (of today) is no harder (and from experience, often simpler)
than installing Windows.

The devils in the details... as they say.


> > Never met anyone who disagrees with paying for software.  Most people
> > would rather not gien the choice but then most people would rather not
> > pay for anything given the choice.  Met a good few people who disagree
> > with not being able to share or modify software.
> > 
> 
> 00:43 <@mharrigan> I think you'll find a lot of people who disagree
> 		   with paying for software, how many illegal copies of
> 		   Windows/Office have you encountered?
> 00:44 <@mharrigan> the moral argument that you should be free to
> 		   modify is very nice but it's not why the greater
> 		   public like the idea of Linux
> 00:45 <Riddell> I don't think that's disagreeing with paying for
> 		software, just they'd rather not pay up
> 00:46 <@mharrigan> erm, not paying is kinda disagreeing in a very active way 
>                    surely?
> 00:47 <Riddell> no, most people consider that what they're doing is morally 
>                 wrong, they just don't care enough about it and would rather 
>                 have a no-cost ride
> 00:53 <@mharrigan> if people don't care enough to pay does that not
> 		   mean they don't agree with paying for software, I'd
> 		   say that's actually very fundamental to people,
> 		   they don't agree with paying for anything
> 00:54 <Riddell> ah well, there goes capitalism :)
> 
> > > The only way Linux is going to come down to that level is if someone
> > > invests money and as yet I've only seen two companies who really want
> > > that level of ease of use, Xandros and Lindows and guess
> > > what... that'll be $$$ pls k thx. (I don't know about the people
> > > behind Xandros but Lindows are just as unscrupulous as Microsoft in
> > > their wheelings and dealings.) 
> > 
> > In what way are Lindows unscrupulous?  
> > 
> I think the CEO is a self publicist bugger whose business ideas are
> the same as Gates he simply hides behind Linux, he commits slander
> on a regular basis and he's a bit of a tit. In other words that's just
> an irrational personal dislike ;)
> 

Well, got to give him credit for putting up that reward for hacking the
Xbox ;)


> > Jonathan Riddell
> > 
> >


--
Andrew