[Glastonbury] Python [WAS: Another company recognizes Liux is HERE!]

[Maurice Onmaplate]

--- Tim Hall <tim@glastonburymusic.org.uk> wrote:
> Hi all,
> I'm a little confused by the direction of this
> thread and the rather decadent 
> use of the english language. So I've retitled.
> One of my main reasons for migrating to Linux was to
> learn programming. 
> 
> On Monday 23 June 2003 23:13, Maurice Onmaplate
> wrote:
> > How can you say a language that relies upon
> > indentation as part of the syntax "is a very
> friendly
> > programming language"?  
> 
> Try it and see.

I probably will, but am concerned that the huge set of
beginners notes seems to tell me almost nothing!  
Checking syntax with .,;[]{} etc is bad enough, but
counting spaces has gotta be a pain?


> It is IMHO far and away the most user-friendly
> programming language - and a 
> very powerful one at that. In GeekSpeak it's
> described as executable 
> pseudocode, which means that its syntax is similar

Yuk!  That makes it difficult!  Difficult to ensure
any level of quality?

> to what one might use to 
> design a program before getting into the absurdities
> of the individual 
> language's syntax. Python is FUN to use. Yes I said
> FUN it's easy to write 
> and debug. I love it, tho I'm at a very basic stage
> with it also.
>
 
> Thanks for the links - they'll be very useful, a
> decent GUI for python might 
> be useful/fun although I find I'm most comfortable
> hacking things up in 
> nedit, although I still have to work out how to
> customise the highlighting.
> 

GUI for Python?  Do you mean Python cannot produce GUI
without some add on, or are you referring to GUI
design tools to help write Pythion code?  Or maybe
this is something else?

> MUSH3.x is my favourite codebase for roleplaying /
> multiuser stuff (text 
> only, but again, it's FUN) - I'd be interested in
> finding a local server to 
> host a social MUSH at some point [It's a telnet &
> text based, user extendible 
> chat & roleplaying engine for those of you who
> aren't familiar]

Never actually looked at any such code bases,
althoiugh have recently played a couple of MUD's
[Multi-user Dungeons] online but very quickly got
bored with the lack of depth to them.  Reminds me of
the days of D&D [Dungeon and Dragons, role playing
around a table] in the 1970's....when no thought was
given to the realities of Dungeon life....


> 
> BTW: wtf does 'visual' mean? 

Visual means that you can get a nice pretty GUI
screen, designed via GUI, that will impress the
client/boss, but will probably NOT actually do what
it's meant to without some hidden and complex code
behind it that most 'profesional' programmers can't be
bothered to do [or don't understand the need for],
leading to awful problems.

>I have found VB to be
> one of the most insane and 
> horribly complex languages - it bears almost no
> relation to the BASIC that I 
> learned on my Dragon32 as a teenager - it's horrid,
> and if you're not using 
> M$ bloatware then you don't need to know it :-)

No argument here...

> By comparison C++ is simple, but surely, unless
> you're writing applications 
> that need speed and tight memory management it's
> unnecessary isn't it? and 
> personally I find the way it handles strings
> confusing.

I've never had the time/brains to get to grip with
C++, although Clipper/xBase++ are said to have some
very C-like syntax.  

> 
> If I had my way I'd use Python for everything, but
> it does require having an 
> interpreter available, so it looks like I'll be
> learning PHP too. I'm trying 
> to avoid perl for reasons of being bad at
> punctuation and Java too for more 
> intuitive reasons although I do like the Object
> Oriented-ness of it.

Is Java REALLY OO?  I don't think it is fully, unlike
xBase++!

Why is it that I have had to unlearn what seems
natural, then learn an anti-intuitive way, only to
then have to relearn what I unlearnt, from age 5 up?

Learning Basic [Commodore 64, BBC] was a real pain,
and I wish I'd had an OO language back then, OO is
soooo much more sensible!

> 
> It would be nice to learn just one language at a
> time, 

or one language for EVERYTHING.  This might be VB's
aimed-at strength, with VB for applications [Word
etc].  I remmber delving into VB for a simple
'announce failed transactions by email' accounting
reauirement.  I found 6 ways to do that, of which 5
failed due to bugs and 1 required a bought-in module
[which worked!].

>but alas, that does 
> not seem to be the way of it. At some future point I
> will probably want to 
> teach my son programming and I'm wondering what
> language to start him off on 
> - probably Python unless anyone has any better
> suggestions.

I've still no real idea what Python can and cannot do.
 PHP is still a mystery to me, and I'm going in loops
trying to make sense of Perl.  XBase++ and the WAA
[Web Application something which comes with it] is in
theory able to do any system anybody could want, the
WAA bit making it work over the internet.  Despite
this I've no idea how WAA works, even though I got a
copy with my xBase++!

Maybe I just need to know too much how/why something
works, rather than just trusting it will.  Although in
my experiance such trust is often misplaced.

I probbaly sound bitter, twisted and frustrated, and
if so it's because I am!

Steve
> 
> cheers
> 
> tim hall
> 
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