[Glastonbury] Just a little idea

[tim hall]

Last Tuesday 09 November 2004 06:55, Sean Miller was like:

> > Once I'd sorted that lot out, it then wanted to download about 300M of
> > updates from an FTP site in Kaiserslauten (WTF - _all_ the useful mirrors
> > are in Germany). The machine has ended up relatively up to date -
> > but only has
> > one user. Time to install a "non-expert" default install - about
> > 2 1/2 hours.
>
> Hmmm... you're saying that the default install didn't allow you to add
> users, either from KDE or the command line? I do not think I shall be using
> SuSE 9.1 in that case...

Just for the record, the latest version of AGNULA/DeMuDi, which uses a 
modified Sarge installer, installs in under an hour and boots X when it's 
done (unless you need proprietary drivers).

[snipperton]

> I didn't say that Debian was total rubbish... I said that it was not for
> everybody... I struggle myself to get things working, like wireless network
> cards and sound on DeMUDI etc.... and I am happy to keep experimenting with
> such things... but at least with other distros one seems to be able to get
> the machine 90% correct "out of the box", whereas with Debian my experience
> with the one attempt to do it is that you get a machine 50% correct "out of
> the box", and then have to learn in-depth Linux config principles to move
> it further forward... 

It's true that Debian is not for everybody. You need a little more time than 
the rpm based distros - Mandrake, SuSE and Fedora. The first two are 
generally reckoned to be the 'user-friendliest' (I think that means they use 
GUI based configuration tools) - Mind you, the biggest PITA to configure on 
Debian has to be CUPS, the only one that relies on GUI config, go figure.

btw, I am currently studying man lpadmin.

> you only have to look at what a Linux guru Tim Hall 
> has become having used Debian for a while to see that it is a distro that
> teaches you a great deal about internals, and appears to require that
> knowledge to get the best out of it... I bet he would not have the
> knowledge he does if he'd used Red Hat 9 from the start... 

Guru? I'm flattered ... I also wouldn't have sussed things out if I'd been 
double booting Windows all this time. Part of my motivation for 
single-mindedly using Debian was that I wanted to learn how computers work 
and be able to configure and program them without being befuddled by 
complicated configuration utilities or a locked down API.

> this is great 
> for Tim, but I don't have the time to do it... and others are the same...
> hence the frustration at this attitude that moving to Debian would be great
> for everybody... I am not sure it would, though it may be that the product
> has now become better in this respect....

I think this is a fair point. Debian has improved greatly over the last three 
years. The attitude that I challenge is that it's not suitable for newbies. 
It is suitable for the kind of newbie that has time and desire to learn, it 
is also suitable for those who do not wish to stroke the suckered tentacles 
of proprietary software. It's quite a radical step.

Compared to Windows XP, Debian is simple, straightforward and Just Works. If 
there's one thing that moves me to computer defenestrating rage, it's XP ;)

> > Zealotry usually requires me to be provoked by an idiot or two :)
>
> I was not the person who effectively told Steve that his Mandrake setup was
> rubbish and should be replaced... I had not even contributed to the thread
> when that particular bit of "zealot" activity started...

You're reading too much into that line.

Last Saturday 06 November 2004 15:35, Andrew M.A. Cater was like:
> When you've done that one, get Steve to move the school from Mandrake :)

Note the lack of the word 'Rubbish' and any synonyms thereof and also the 
little smiley at the end. It's an obviously tongue-in-cheek remark. Anyhow, 
it generated the liveliest thread this list has seen for months ;] I actually 
think it's great that people are so passionate, however, the shillelagh 
waving is a little unnecessary IMO.

cheers

tim hall