[Gllug] GLLUG ->Gnu Linux London Users Group

[Dan Kolb]

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On Wednesday 20 Feb 2002 08:56 am, Nix wrote:
> > I, for example, will not use Debian GNU/Linux on my i386-type PCs
> > precisely for that reason. There have been too many people saying "Debian
> > r0x! I7 i5 t3h 31337 l1nuX d1str0!".
>
> That's a bloody stupid reason to rule out a distribution. How about
> looking for the distro that serves your needs and choosing it, rather
> than engaging in some sort of reverse popularity contest? That's a

I do. I use Slackware because it works for me, and because I like it, and for 
no other reason. Now, I don't mind people pointing out that $DISTRO1 has 
such-and-such flaws, which don't exist in $DISTRO2, when they do it 
rationally. But I do mind if people say "Oh, $DISTRO1 sucks, you should be 
using my distro of choice because it's better".

I'm doing some admin occasionally for a friend - he's got a remote-access 
machine in Rackspace (US). He's got RedHat 7.1 installed, and there have been 
a lot of time I'd have liked Debian installed, simply for the ease of 
updating the system (rather than any political reasons). If I'm installing a 
server-type machine for a company that I may be working at, I'll tend to go 
for whichever distro is handy at that time, and that's normally RedHat.

> tactic I'd expect of someone who was using Linux `to get away from
> Microsoft', not because Windows is closed, constraining, or restrictive,
> but merely because it is successful; the tactic of a ten-year-old (and I
> fear I'm maligning some ten-year-olds).

If I was getting away from something merely because it was successful, I'd be 
using OS2 ;-)

> >                           I have had someone saying (not on this list)
> > that I shouldn't use Slackware (my distro of choice) because 'the package
> > manager is shit, so you should use Debian'.
>
> That's mildly OTT. Given a choice between Slackware-and-no-decent-
> package-management and Debian (i.e., if Stow, epkg, Depot, STORE and
> similar programs didn't exist) that argument would be more
> reasonable. But they do, and it's perfectly possible to keep a system
> running without apt (although it's a time sink).

I can keep my Slackware system running quite happily. Every few days, I pull 
down any updates from the slackware-current tree, and upgrade the existing 
packages with the new ones (upgradepkg *). If I didn't want to use -current, 
then I could pull updates off the security updates directory. I also like 
being able to install packages from source - if I want to upgrade an 
already-installed package from source, I merely install over the top. If I 
come to remove that package, then the new files will be removed without 
complaints. Anyway, I'm going to continue using Slackware on my current 
machine, and unless something breaks horrendously badly, I'm not going to be 
persuaded to switch to another distro.

> >                                  That sort of fanaticism put me off using
> > it,
> >                             Yes, I may be being arsey here, but I have a
>
> `Bloody stupid' is what I'd describe it as. You can always find idiots
> and rabid frothing zealots supporting any system; indeed, I have
> tendencies that way myself (although I try to add some *reason* to my
> arguments ;) )

I have no problem with reasoned arguments, until they fall into the 'mine is 
better than yours. Nyerrr' category.

Okay. I probably went OTT in saying 'never use it'. If I get an appropriate 
opportunity, I may well try it *digs out copy of VMWare*. I do like to try as 
many distributions as possible, as time permits. However, I shall not be 
persuaded to switch my computer over to it simply because people say it's 
good. I shall switch over when my current choice fails me completely, or if I 
get fed up of it because there have been problems that bugged me for some 
time.

> > As for making efforts, please say what they are. Which GNU project are
> > you contributing to? Are you talking like Richard Stallman about Freedom,
> > or are you talking like Eric Raymond about cost-effectiveness in adopting
> > Linux?
>
> The former, in my case. I've used non-free systems and they're horrible
> *precisely because of that non-freeness*. i.e., the lack of source
> availability and amenability to modification/redistribution. It's damned
> *useful* to be able to fix bugs or add the occasional feature and lob
> the changes at all the sites you admin at the same time as contributing
> them upstream.

I agree. There are people here who do contribute to the Free Software 
community, through various methods. My question was actually aimed more at 
Nick, rather than generally, though.

> I expect the BSDs would have been going by now, but if they'd had to
> start by writing a toolchain back in '92 or thereabouts, I doubt that
> they'd have got something reasonably useful before '96.

I thought that they didn't get going for a long time because of copyright 
lawsuits, or some other silly thing from AT&T. In the meantime, Linus wrote 
Linux, and because that wasn't encumbered in any way, people started using it 
instead of BSD.

> <opinion type=flameworthy>
> There might be free software, but corporate entities would always have
> been hiving off it, taking the high points and keeping them for their
> own good, then turning them against us. The more GPLed code there is,
> the less likely that becomes; and a good thing too.
> </opinion>

Like Microsoft apparently taking the FreeBSD IP stack and sticking it into 
Windows 2000?

> > Bollocks. Linus started it for fun because he didn't like Minix. He
> > released the source code so people could play with it. Without the GPL,
> > it'd have been under a 'do what you like, but don't use it commercially'
> > licence, which is what it originally had (IIRC).
>
> Er, note that he *did* change license, and it wasn't because he was
> forced by some kind of slavering RMS beast. (Which beast bears no
> obvious resemblance to RMS himself, I have to say.)

- From what I remember, he was pointed to the GPL and the GNU toolkit by 
someone, and he then decided to change the Linux licence.

Dan - who really should be revising Physics as he's got Finals next week
- -- 
Sturgeon's Law:
	90% of everything is crud.

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