[Gllug] Handing out flyers this Saturday for the Installfest.

[Dermot Moynihan]

At 13:13 14/02/03, you wrote:

> > Interestingly those of us who spend a lot of time have access to a lot
> > more information and so can, if we choose, make a more informed decision
> > than those who rely only upon $MEDIA_RAG or $TV_NEWS.
>
>so what you're saying is that if you have access to a lot of information
>regarding the situation with iraq you are against war?
>
>i've got access to a lot of information, i read newspapers both in english
>and swedish (via the web, of course)

I had thought the point he was making was that those who don't rely on 
Newspapers or TV for their information can be better informed (via the 
Web?) than those who do. Reading the newspapers *via* the Web hardly 
refutes his argument.

And reading newspapers in English is certainly not going to inform you. 
Most of the media over here is pro war apart from the odd article which is 
permitted.

>and i still think that iraq should be crushed

It's hardly a tin can at the side of the road. We're talking here about 
living, breathing, human beings with the same dreams and aspirations as you 
and I. And they have to live under a tyrant. Some of them are, no doubt, 
Linux users. Assuming, of course, that they can get the electricity which, 
at the moment, is in very short supply as a result of the damage 
intentionally done to the infrastructure during the last war and still not 
repaired due to our sanctions.

The sanctions have killed hundreds of thousands of children, to say nothing 
of mothers who go hungry in order to feed their kids. Denis Halliday, 
senior UN Humanitarian Coordinator in Iraq, resigned in protest at the 
sanctions, describing what was being done as "genocide".  Some time later 
(February 2000), Hans von Sponeck, Halliday's successor, also resigned, 
saying,  "How long should the civilian population of Iraq be exposed to 
such punishment for something they have never done?"  Two days later (15 
Feb), Jutta Burghardt, head of the UN-linked World Food Programme in Iraq, 
resigned saying she could no longer tolerate what was being done to the 
Iraqi people.

Halliday noted in November 1999, "...the term [genocide] has been used 
frequently by the establishment in the UK and the USA to describe events in 
Kosovo and East Timor. As far as the US and UK governments were concerned, 
others 'commit genocide, we do not'".

Since the 1991 war the children of Iraq, as a result of malnourishment 
caused by sanctions, are actually, shorter than the children of previous 
generations. None of these kids were even born when Saddam invaded Kuwait.

We're talking here about a country that was led into an extremely 
destructive 10 year war against its neighbour Iran by its tyrannical leader 
Saddam Hussein, then had to face the awesome firepower of what is without 
doubt the most powerful superpower there has ever been and then there were 
12 years of the most restricitve sanctions in living memory. You say that 
"iraq (sic) should be crushed" well, you're way too late - it's already 
been crushed. Devastated!

And now suddenly we *need* to bomb it again. This awesome threat to us all. 
Why do you think it is that the Saudis, the Egyptians, the Syrians and even 
the Turks are against this war? Why aren't they afraid of this awesome 
threat to civilisation? The latter two share borders with Iraq.

So, is this about nuclear weapons? If so, what about North Korea? Surely if 
this was about nuclear weapons we'd be concentrating on N Korea. Or might 
it be that we never invade countries that have nuclear weapons? (Would we 
seriously contemplate invading Iraq if they had nuclear weapons?). If this 
debacle has done anything it may well have introduced a climate of 
proliferation - the message has gone out loud and clear that if you want to 
keep free of the clutches of US power get yourself some nukes.

And of course, let's not forget our buttress against Arab Nationalism in 
the Middle East, Israel. Why don't the inspectors go in there? They've 
certainly got their share of nuclear weapons. And they're certainly in 
breach of numerous UN Resolutions. Sixty four I believe, at the last count. 
They've damn near made it fashionable. But a fashion that we only allow to 
Israel. And let's not forget their ongoing ethnic cleansing. They'd love an 
attack on Iraq - give them a chance to kill some more Palestinians while 
the world's attention is distracted. Not that the world gives a damn 
anyway!  Blairs recent so-called Middle East Peace Conference was nothing 
but a sop for the arab leaders with which they might pacify their people so 
that they might stand idly by while we go off and bomb Iraq.  Fortunately, 
the so-called ordinary people are not the fools they are made out to be. 
As, indeed will be seen by tomorrow's march.

Is this attack on Iraq an attempt to give democracy to the Iraqi people? No 
more than the previous attack was an attempt to give democracy to the 
Kuwaitis. The very suggestion is preposterous. You only have to look at the 
list of tyrants and dictators we have supported over the years.

>are you saying that my decision/opinion is less informed

it's less informed because you read what you choose to read and have become 
frozen into a particular mindset. You might try
http://www.zmag.org/
as an alternative.

>just because i
>don't agree with you?
>interesting view..
>
>and i am i the only person on this list that think that war is about the
>only solution there is to this problem?

What exactly do you see as being the *problem*? Who told you about the 
nature of this problem? Bush? Blair? Our sycophantic media?  Be cynical, 
don't believe them. Work it out.


>/ d
>
>
>btw. no, i don't think war is good. no, i don't think killing innocent
>people is good.

Why is it people who are in favour of wars always say this?

>but sometimes you have to do things that you don't like, to make sure that
>you don't get killed

Who the heel is coming to kill you?  Not even one Iraqi has been arrested 
for so called "terrorism charges in the West.
For crying out loud do some reading. And be sceptical. Ask yourself some 
questions.

>(sort of)

That's a bit limp. A lot of innocent people are going to get killed. Do you 
not think you might do them the courtesy before you assist in their 
annihilation of at least making an effort to find out just what the hell is 
going on.

So,
<calming down >
all in all, I take it you won't be at the march then.

Dermot


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