A silly question maybe; surely the PIN is *not* stored on the card ! although difficult to 'read' the contents of the cards non-volatile memory it must be possible? surely the card either stores the pin encypted in some fancy way, or a non-reversible 'digest' ?? tim -- Gllug mailing list - Gllug at gllug.org.uk http://lists.gllug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/gllug