[Klug-general] Ubuntu and Kabuntu

Tue Jun 21 16:31:54 BST 2005

RPMs never get built correctly because they are so complicated.
The dependency managing/checking tools are bad (one type of dep... which
leads to multiple rpms needed)
What about if you install package a which has dep b but dep b needs dep
c? why do you not get told about dep c at dep a time?

Want me to go on?

RPM is just another example of good idea, bad execution.

Karl Lattimer wrote:

>rpm will never die! and why exactly do you think that deb is better? The
>only thing wrong with RPM is that you can check which packages are
>required by an installed package without doing a dry run erase.
>
>rpm has good requirement/dependency checking of binaries/packages/files
>on build/install, a good strong build method (which is VERY flexible), a
>good easy to use cli, can uninstall a package into an rpm file (although
>you can't make an rpm from an installed package without uninstailling
>it?!?!), rpm is also more widely used for a great many reasons and deb
>hardly ever gets an update.
>
>I think most important about rpm is anaconda, anaconda can determine the
>install order of rpms for splitting onto CD's and mangle this order up
>in a great many ways to get the most efficient use of the space on the
>disk. Anaconda also provides a massive amount of configuration for
>building a system remotely using rpm and even doing remote installs via
>vnc.
>
>although RPM and anaconda are not the same thing, they are inextricably
>linked and provide a means of developing customised distributions of
>linux very quickly, which, most importantly WORK on install.
>
>Oh yeah and don't forget that rpm is probably the best linux ids out
>there, beats the hell out of trip wire, because every package is signed
>on build, files are summed on install in md5/gpg as you verify packages
>the signatures pop out warnings for various reasons, if you want to find
>a rootkit try verifying binutils, and voila if there is a root kit,
>you'll get a fail on all of the db checks. then all you need do to
>remove the rootkit is find all immutable files chattr them back rpm
>--replacepkgs and your done.
>
>Maybe I'm biased, I've used redhat for so long in so many servers its
>just imho the easiest way to make the world work. RPM can be cumbersome
>but it is getting better, and now that fewer tw at s are making crap
>packages and fresh/dag/nrpms/atrpms/fedora.us and many others are making
>good quality rpms to provide the things lacking in the fedora distro
>(mostly for legal reasons) there really isn't any need for me personally
>to use anything else.
>
>If i want to play with gnome 2.11 then i can jhbuild it (similar to
>emerge without effecting the system)
>
>Also, I still prefer handing a newbe my copy of the horse book (Linux in
>a nutshell) and saying, "Its all in there", watch as their face contorts
>and their brain explodes at the mere thought of reading a book with more
>than 1000pages and no pictures!
>
>YaST is like giving them a wowypop. 
>
>On Tue, 2005-06-21 at 15:45 +0000, George Prowse wrote:
>  
>
>>People need to learn how to edit configs themselves but for gently
>>letting people into a distro there is no better than YaST.
>>
>>Ubuntu reminded me of 2 things: Why i moved from Debian to Gentoo and
>>that rpm needs to die, deb is better.
>>
>>
>>Karl Lattimer wrote:
>>
>>    
>>
>>>Ethical google "Do no evil" lol
>>>
>>>I'm not an ubuntu or kabuntu user or even a SuSE user. I just had to put
>>>my sixth peneth in about YaST.
>>>
>>>YaST should be sent to the black hole that consumed linux conf, and will
>>>consume webmin. Admittedly a great idea for early linux users, I used to
>>>advocate things like this, but one thing that I've noticed about all of
>>>them is that they only incorporate the configuration methods of the few
>>>developers of the tools.
>>>
>>>Linux conf would for instance, break a manual set up of vhosts in apache
>>>when you tried to configure any of the server defaults via the tool.
>>>Other items were things like network card driver configuration being
>>>changed when you open the app and close it without even doing anything.
>>>Linuxconf taught redhat a very valuable lesson. Generalised
>>>configuration tools restrict the users movement and can lead to
>>>breakages in a lot of the system configuration (just look at the windows
>>>registry), in some cases breakages which cannot be fixed by the tool and
>>>even on manual repair the tool continues to misbehave. After redhat's 90
>>>day free support calls went through the roof as a result of linuxconf
>>>(rh6.2) they ditched it in favour of small specialised fault tolerant
>>>front ends (system-config-*), this has now become the norm amongst gnome
>>>and fedora developers. The all in one linux configuration solution is a
>>>bad idea, yast will probably either get ditched by novell fairly soon or
>>>be replaced with something simpler/smaller/more specialised.
>>>
>>>In simple terms, to learn linux you learn yast, but learning yast
>>>defeats the point of learning linux, you get apathetic, so you're still
>>>on the phone/mailing lists etc... trying to get someone to help you fix
>>>a problem outside of the scope of yast, then when you fire up yast to
>>>change something simple it breaks the fixes you put in place.
>>>
>>>Isn't it much better to have a tool for a specific task too, I can't
>>>even count the number of times I've been searching through control panel
>>>for something I KNOW IS THERE but can't find it, EVEN THOUGH I SAW IT IN
>>>THE LAST VERSION OF WINDOWS... Spreading configuration about makes the
>>>user look for it, no matter how well designed the front end is. What
>>>happens if suse decide to move proxy configuration from a well known
>>>spot to somewhere inside the network settings instead of where it
>>>USUALLY is ...
>>>
>>>You get the point?
>>>Karl,
>>>
>>>On Tue, 2005-06-21 at 14:53 +0000, George Prowse wrote:
>>> 
>>>
>>>      
>>>
>>>>Useable...  Oh, you mean GNOME is usable?
>>>>
>>>>Ethical... You mean they dont kill kittens if you dont use it?
>>>>
>>>>Pretty good... I've used better. SuSE 9.3, which has just been released
>>>>is better for the beginner in my opinion. YaST has grown so much in
>>>>stature that there is a thread on the Gentoo forums about whether it
>>>>could be ported to be used on a Gentoo system so newcomers to Gentoo are
>>>>able to configure their system easily.
>>>>
>>>>I very much doubt you're stupid, you're using linux for a start!
>>>>
>>>>George
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>aleX Layfield wrote:
>>>>
>>>>   
>>>>
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>>>It's useable... and ethically... pretty good...
>>>>>
>>>>>For kids? Maybe... but I'm not a kid... just stupid...
>>>>>
>>>>>----- Original Message ----- 
>>>>>From: "George Prowse" <cokehabit2003 at yahoo.co.uk>
>>>>>To: "Kent Linux User Group - General Topics" <kent at mailman.lug.org.uk>
>>>>>Sent: Monday, June 20, 2005 9:07 AM
>>>>>Subject: Re: [Klug-general] Ubuntu and Kabuntu
>>>>>

___________________________________________________________ 
Yahoo! Messenger - NEW crystal clear PC to PC calling worldwide with voicemail http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com