[Klug-general] Mailing list etiquette, again

[Shish]

> And you feel that people who dont post in a certain way undermine your 
> ability to post?
> 
> If "yes" then you seem to have lost your "thick skin" you said you have.
> If "no" then why start this argument?

No, they do not undermine my ability to post, they undermine my ability
to *understand*. From the very beginning my point has been "this post
was hard to understand, here is why it was hard to understand, and here
are some ways that it could be improved"


> > If you don't want to communicate, why be a
> > list member in the first place?
> 
> You seem to have made 2 + 2 = 5 there... That sentence has no bearing on 
> any part of the this discussion so far.

It has bearing, but weak, so I'll concede it


> > Also, how was force suggested and / or applied?
> 
> So what are the point of rules if no-one adheres to them?

My hope is that if people know that guidelines exist, and they know
that there is a reasonable, logical explanation behind them, then the
majority of people will follow them of their own free will.


> A general point was made that some rules about etiquette were needed, my 
> response was that if we use common sense then they aren't.

Common sense isn't :P

Where is the common sense in posting a new thread when replying to an
existing one?

Where is the common sense in changing the title of the thread if you
are continuing the same topic?

Where is the common sense in giving context to a message only after
that message has finished?

Where is the common sense in putting someone else's text and your own
at the same level, so to someone glancing, they look as one message?

By your defenition of "if we use common sense then rules about
etiquette aren't needed", and my reply of "we do not use common sense",
then the conclusion we come to is "rules about etiquette *are* needed".

I also wish to point out that I don't think the OP is necessarily
lacking in common sense, just that they didn't explicitly sit down
and spend time thinking about effective communication, as I have done :P


> > See why I think "quote, reply, quote, reply" is a good idea yet? It
> > helps both reader *and* writer :P
> 
> *If* they are talking to you and you alone...

If it helps one person understand the conversation, how does it not
help a group? How would top-posting, bottom-posting, or not quoting at
all be better?


> Have you seen the original poster make these mistakes time and time again?

Why wait for mistakes to be repeated before pointing out better ways?


> Let it go, sometimes things like this happen.

Myself and the poster in question have explained our positions and (I
hope) come to a conclusion over the original incident~


> > I have no idea why someone thinks that spending 5 minutes doing the
> > above is a good thing, and spending 5 seconds following etiquette in
> > order to make their message instantly understandable is a bad thing :-/
> 
> Why work it out? If you dont like how it is written - don't read it

Because I was working on the assumption that if someone has posted,
then they want what they've written to be read and understood by
others. I wished to help the poster achieve this.

IMHO, ignoring someone who wants to be heard is ruder than trying to
help them get their message across.


As an anecdote; the last time I was upset by something someone said
online was ~6 years ago, when I was 13. It was a discussion of
reletavistic effects when one nears the speed of light -- I was
insisting that newtonian physics made sense and reletavistic effects
were silly*. There were two groups of people opposing me, those who
were being openly aggressive, with much use of harsh language, who
pointed out every tiny mistake I made, they actually pushed me to
tears on several occasions; and those who basically said "there's no way
you'll ever be able to understand", at which point they left the thread.

So here we have three points:
o) Open offense, swearing, calling names, etc
o) Pointing out my mistakes
o) Giving up hope

And three results:
o) I got a thick skin and learned to ignore irrelevant stuff
o) I learned a lot about physics, logic, debate skills, and became a
   much better person generally
o) I was upset

Can you guess which point led to which result? Hint: leaving me alone
so that I could continue failing did not make me a better person.

(If you notice me telling this story at every chance I get, it'll be
because even though I was upset to tears, I still consider it the
single most important event that made me as awesome** as I am now :P)

* TBH, I still think relativity is silly, although I'll concede that
  it's right :P

** in other news, my ego needs deflating :-/ A pint for anyone who can
   use maths and logic to prove me irrefutably wrong about something, as
   the physics dudes mentioned above did...


> >> Post sensibly
> > 
> > You think the idea of forcing some kind of etiquette on people in this
> > list is absurd, remember? :)
> > 
> 1. Pick up dictionary
> 2. Look up "force"
> 3. Look up "etiquette"
> 4. Return, read quote again and repost

* goes to google dictionary *

* looks up "force" *

"The Force is a mystical and binding, ubiquitous power that is the
object of the Jedi and Sith monastic orders in the fictional Star Wars
universe."

* looks up "etiquette" *

Hmmm... something to do with golf.

* returns *

* reads quote again *

* reposts *

> Post sensibly

You think the idea of forcing some kind of etiquette on people in this
list is absurd, remember? :)

Thing is, from where I'm looking, "Post according to etiquette
guidelines" IS "Post sensibly", seeing as all the guidelines are,
IMHO, embodiments of sensibleness.

The problem comes when different people have different ideas about what
sensible is, which is why it helps to agree formally. Also, people
might not necessarily have a different idea, but no idea at all, about
what techniques are useful -- again, telling them is better than
letting them flail about helplessly.


> >> ignore mistakes and errors
> > 
> > Personally, if I make a mistake, I wish to know about it. How else will
> > I learn?
> 
> Personally I think the way you have handled this is fucking rude!!!

So I noticed :) And thanks to the fact that you have pointed this out,
I have learned that there are people on this list who's threshold for
"fucking rude" is below my threshold for "clear, polite, and
informative".

I have also learned that when I read "You're an f'ing idiot, you're
doing it all wrong (just like an idiot would, you idiot), you should do
it this way, idiot", I ignore the offense part and take the advice part;
but when other people read "you're doing it wrong, you should do it this
way", they imagine an offence part where none is intended, and ignore
the advice part...


> How dare you shove a small mistake down someone's throat on a friendly 
> list like this!

Firstly, I wouldn't consider a combination of mistakes large enough
that I couldn't understand the post to be "small".

Secondly, if you think this is shoving something down someone's throat,
I dread to think how you'd react to a flame war...


> > Given that you think pointing out mistakes is a mistake, and you're
> > pointing that out to me rather than ignoring it, that shows that you
> > support my view and defeat your own :P
> 
> I'm arguing these points so you dont make the same mistake again and we 
> dont need some "rules and regulations" when we post

And I'm arguing these points so that other people don't make their same
mistakes again and we don't need to waste time deciphering when we read.

We're both arguing to the same degree, and both arguing with the
intent of making the list a better place; the difference being, my
argument isn't inherently hypocritical :P

I'm getting a lot of vibes of "We MUST all be tolerant of others, and
allow them to make mistakes. Intolerance will NOT be tolerated; if
they make that mistake, we must stop them immediately!"


> > <flame serverity=":P">
> > Hint: before composing your reply, you may wish to read this:
> > http://tinyurl.com/2v6hf5
> > </flame>
> 
> Childish... I'm surprised you didn't use the kid with Down Dyndrome

As indicated by the ":P", I am well aware that this is not a good
example of a serious point, and I did not intend it to be taken as
such -- I was poking fun at *everyone* involved here, *especially*
myself, because it seems that I've spent a lot more time thinking
about it than any normal person would :P

--
Shish