[Klug-general] Mailing list etiquette, again

[Zahn Daltocli]

Look, like matter is getting somewhat stupid and bears no relation to 
Linux related topics. Just drop it and stop wasting others inbox spaces, 
because that's all that is really going on now.

Stop picking things to threads, get over it and bury it. It's really 
that simple.

Shish wrote:
>> And you feel that people who dont post in a certain way undermine your 
>> ability to post?
>>
>> If "yes" then you seem to have lost your "thick skin" you said you have.
>> If "no" then why start this argument?
>>     
>
> No, they do not undermine my ability to post, they undermine my ability
> to *understand*. From the very beginning my point has been "this post
> was hard to understand, here is why it was hard to understand, and here
> are some ways that it could be improved"
>
>
>   
>>> If you don't want to communicate, why be a
>>> list member in the first place?
>>>       
>> You seem to have made 2 + 2 = 5 there... That sentence has no bearing on 
>> any part of the this discussion so far.
>>     
>
> It has bearing, but weak, so I'll concede it
>
>
>   
>>> Also, how was force suggested and / or applied?
>>>       
>> So what are the point of rules if no-one adheres to them?
>>     
>
> My hope is that if people know that guidelines exist, and they know
> that there is a reasonable, logical explanation behind them, then the
> majority of people will follow them of their own free will.
>
>
>   
>> A general point was made that some rules about etiquette were needed, my 
>> response was that if we use common sense then they aren't.
>>     
>
> Common sense isn't :P
>
> Where is the common sense in posting a new thread when replying to an
> existing one?
>
> Where is the common sense in changing the title of the thread if you
> are continuing the same topic?
>
> Where is the common sense in giving context to a message only after
> that message has finished?
>
> Where is the common sense in putting someone else's text and your own
> at the same level, so to someone glancing, they look as one message?
>
> By your defenition of "if we use common sense then rules about
> etiquette aren't needed", and my reply of "we do not use common sense",
> then the conclusion we come to is "rules about etiquette *are* needed".
>
> I also wish to point out that I don't think the OP is necessarily
> lacking in common sense, just that they didn't explicitly sit down
> and spend time thinking about effective communication, as I have done :P
>
>
>   
>>> See why I think "quote, reply, quote, reply" is a good idea yet? It
>>> helps both reader *and* writer :P
>>>       
>> *If* they are talking to you and you alone...
>>     
>
> If it helps one person understand the conversation, how does it not
> help a group? How would top-posting, bottom-posting, or not quoting at
> all be better?
>
>
>   
>> Have you seen the original poster make these mistakes time and time again?
>>     
>
> Why wait for mistakes to be repeated before pointing out better ways?
>
>
>   
>> Let it go, sometimes things like this happen.
>>     
>
> Myself and the poster in question have explained our positions and (I
> hope) come to a conclusion over the original incident~
>
>
>   
>>> I have no idea why someone thinks that spending 5 minutes doing the
>>> above is a good thing, and spending 5 seconds following etiquette in
>>> order to make their message instantly understandable is a bad thing :-/
>>>       
>> Why work it out? If you dont like how it is written - don't read it
>>     
>
> Because I was working on the assumption that if someone has posted,
> then they want what they've written to be read and understood by
> others. I wished to help the poster achieve this.
>
> IMHO, ignoring someone who wants to be heard is ruder than trying to
> help them get their message across.
>
>
> As an anecdote; the last time I was upset by something someone said
> online was ~6 years ago, when I was 13. It was a discussion of
> reletavistic effects when one nears the speed of light -- I was
> insisting that newtonian physics made sense and reletavistic effects
> were silly*. There were two groups of people opposing me, those who
> were being openly aggressive, with much use of harsh language, who
> pointed out every tiny mistake I made, they actually pushed me to
> tears on several occasions; and those who basically said "there's no way
> you'll ever be able to understand", at which point they left the thread.
>
> So here we have three points:
> o) Open offense, swearing, calling names, etc
> o) Pointing out my mistakes
> o) Giving up hope
>
> And three results:
> o) I got a thick skin and learned to ignore irrelevant stuff
> o) I learned a lot about physics, logic, debate skills, and became a
>    much better person generally
> o) I was upset
>
> Can you guess which point led to which result? Hint: leaving me alone
> so that I could continue failing did not make me a better person.
>
> (If you notice me telling this story at every chance I get, it'll be
> because even though I was upset to tears, I still consider it the
> single most important event that made me as awesome** as I am now :P)
>
> * TBH, I still think relativity is silly, although I'll concede that
>   it's right :P
>
> ** in other news, my ego needs deflating :-/ A pint for anyone who can
>    use maths and logic to prove me irrefutably wrong about something, as
>    the physics dudes mentioned above did...
>
>
>   
>>>> Post sensibly
>>>>         
>>> You think the idea of forcing some kind of etiquette on people in this
>>> list is absurd, remember? :)
>>>
>>>       
>> 1. Pick up dictionary
>> 2. Look up "force"
>> 3. Look up "etiquette"
>> 4. Return, read quote again and repost
>>     
>
> * goes to google dictionary *
>
> * looks up "force" *
>
> "The Force is a mystical and binding, ubiquitous power that is the
> object of the Jedi and Sith monastic orders in the fictional Star Wars
> universe."
>
> * looks up "etiquette" *
>
> Hmmm... something to do with golf.
>
> * returns *
>
> * reads quote again *
>
> * reposts *
>
>   
>> Post sensibly
>>     
>
> You think the idea of forcing some kind of etiquette on people in this
> list is absurd, remember? :)
>
> Thing is, from where I'm looking, "Post according to etiquette
> guidelines" IS "Post sensibly", seeing as all the guidelines are,
> IMHO, embodiments of sensibleness.
>
> The problem comes when different people have different ideas about what
> sensible is, which is why it helps to agree formally. Also, people
> might not necessarily have a different idea, but no idea at all, about
> what techniques are useful -- again, telling them is better than
> letting them flail about helplessly.
>
>
>   
>>>> ignore mistakes and errors
>>>>         
>>> Personally, if I make a mistake, I wish to know about it. How else will
>>> I learn?
>>>       
>> Personally I think the way you have handled this is fucking rude!!!
>>     
>
> So I noticed :) And thanks to the fact that you have pointed this out,
> I have learned that there are people on this list who's threshold for
> "fucking rude" is below my threshold for "clear, polite, and
> informative".
>
> I have also learned that when I read "You're an f'ing idiot, you're
> doing it all wrong (just like an idiot would, you idiot), you should do
> it this way, idiot", I ignore the offense part and take the advice part;
> but when other people read "you're doing it wrong, you should do it this
> way", they imagine an offence part where none is intended, and ignore
> the advice part...
>
>
>   
>> How dare you shove a small mistake down someone's throat on a friendly 
>> list like this!
>>     
>
> Firstly, I wouldn't consider a combination of mistakes large enough
> that I couldn't understand the post to be "small".
>
> Secondly, if you think this is shoving something down someone's throat,
> I dread to think how you'd react to a flame war...
>
>
>   
>>> Given that you think pointing out mistakes is a mistake, and you're
>>> pointing that out to me rather than ignoring it, that shows that you
>>> support my view and defeat your own :P
>>>       
>> I'm arguing these points so you dont make the same mistake again and we 
>> dont need some "rules and regulations" when we post
>>     
>
> And I'm arguing these points so that other people don't make their same
> mistakes again and we don't need to waste time deciphering when we read.
>
> We're both arguing to the same degree, and both arguing with the
> intent of making the list a better place; the difference being, my
> argument isn't inherently hypocritical :P
>
> I'm getting a lot of vibes of "We MUST all be tolerant of others, and
> allow them to make mistakes. Intolerance will NOT be tolerated; if
> they make that mistake, we must stop them immediately!"
>
>
>   
>>> <flame serverity=":P">
>>> Hint: before composing your reply, you may wish to read this:
>>> http://tinyurl.com/2v6hf5
>>> </flame>
>>>       
>> Childish... I'm surprised you didn't use the kid with Down Dyndrome
>>     
>
> As indicated by the ":P", I am well aware that this is not a good
> example of a serious point, and I did not intend it to be taken as
> such -- I was poking fun at *everyone* involved here, *especially*
> myself, because it seems that I've spent a lot more time thinking
> about it than any normal person would :P
>
> --
> Shish
>
> _______________________________________________
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> Kent at mailman.lug.org.uk
> https://mailman.lug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/kent
>
>