[Klug-general] Talk at the next meet

Twigathy twigathy at gmail.com
Sat Nov 15 15:36:07 UTC 2008

For those of you who use gmail and Firefox, there are some
greasemonkey scripts around which'll do GPG and friends. I haven't
tried them myself, but I know they exist. Worth googling if you're


2008/11/15 Karl Lattimer <karl at qdh.org.uk>:
>> > This is a pretty abstract problem. It's actually more about the content
>> > then the protocols.
>> Ok, I think it's more a case of how some people use it.
> It actually comes down to an inadequate interaction metaphor and
> "training required" design approach... Everyone needs at the very least
> a fairly brief introduction to how email works. This sucks.
>> > For instance, if someone sends me a meeting request via email, why do I
>> > choose to accept or reject it via my message viewer, why doesn't it
>> > appear in the context of my calendar?
>> Someone sends me a letter inviting me to their wedding. I take out a
>> peice of paper and a pencil, and write back a letter saying I accept it.
>> I then turn to the calender on the fridge and mark "29th febuary 2007,
>> John's wedding".
>> I get an email inviting me to a meeting, I hit the reply button and say
>> "sure, I'll be there". I then move to a different tool and mark in my
>> calender: "1200 tuesday - meet with man about dog"
>> So email implements normal life quite well. It's a work flow we are used
>> to.
> I disagree, the message -> calendar problem is a huge interaction
> mistake. Microsoft made it first, it has perpetuated throughout (I am of
> course talking about clients that support meeting requests etc...)
>> > In the old days of offices (before computers) an inbox tray was
>> > something that items in the following contexts would be placed;
>> >
>> >  * Things I've been asked to do
>> >  * Things I'm doing
>> >  * Things I'm about to do
>> No, an inbox also included all your incoming mail. So your invoices from
>> suppliers, your letter from your aunt, etc...
> True, However it makes little sense that we should employ our brains to
> parse these messages rather than simply use the power of the computer.
> There's also the "after the inbox" - what do I do with this issue, this
> can largely be solved or at least softened and organised for us.
>> > Now if we use this metaphor correctly in terms of email, we suddenly
>> > realise that email is absolute junk... All of it...
>> Depends what you use your email for. I use it to send what I would have
>> historically done as a letter. "Hi Dad, arrived in Utrecht".
> Of course, one of the metaphors that email is good at is the letters &
> mailings metaphor, however there has ended up being some crossover
> between IM and mail.
>> Erm, I store it all in one inbox, which sorts things by threads. I never
>> was able to process the information when it was automatically sorted
>> into many boxes. It is too much a pull method. I prefer for push
>> methods. If it isn't in my inbox, it never happend.
> You must get a lot less email than me... I used to do this, now I simply
> get too much to leave it to the email horizon.
>> As someone who hasn't, don't, and will not, use facebook. I consider
>> this a bug in facebook, not email :p
> Facebook isn't the only thing that sends notifications, paypal among
> other services is just one more example.
>> > So its pretty plain to see its all full of junk, and it needs some
>> > language processing, semantic linking and contextual separation at the
>> > natural points of separation rather than artificial ones. Moreover it's
>> > got to do all this without a user lifting a finger.
>> What sort of email do you get?
> I get email related to various projects, email related to various tasks
> I've been working on, emails where I'm collaborating with someone on
> documents, images etc... emails which are from mailing lists, emails on
> various financial matters the list goes on and on and on...
> Firstly collaboration is pretty broken, mostly because there's no
> inbuilt revision control, that's why wizbit (http://wizbit.org) will
> start handling this in the future.
> Then you've got the boxing problem, which makes the whole house of cards
> fall apart (if anyone got that joke I'd be really happy). for instance
> (a crude example to highlight the semantics)
> item: Evolution & Seahorse integration
> folders
>  Evolution
>  Seahorse
> Urm... I've had this problem come up so many times with hierarchies that it's just not funny anymore.
> This is why organise framework is so important.
>> You used the term leverage and framework. Are you being assimulated into
>> the marketting department?
> "organise framework" is a framework currently under development
> http://www.organise-fw.org/
> leverage is something we use when we have to lift something heavy.
> Therefore a tedious highlighting of my language semantics proves
> fruitless...
>> Use the tool for what it was intended?
> Good luck telling everyone that... Good luck telling everyone not to
> dump shit in my inbox that should have arrived via a more sensible
> medium...
>> > There's a lot we can do to improve the situation, right now a huge dump
>> > of messages is not an effective way of organising things.
>> >
>> I personally prefer encryption of the message, not the transmission
>> medium. Sure I would like my mail to go in an armoured truck, but cos
>> it's all encrypted anyway, its not such a problem. You mention a
>> deficiency in one protocol (yes I know there are others in others).
>> Personally, I don't like IMAP, or POP3, or exchange. I use Mutt, and I
>> run it on the mailserver. Email arrives and is delivered to
>> /var/mail/user. Works really well for me. I am sure people would frown
>> at it, and go "You should use maildir" or "But this gui app can do..."
>> and the like. But ultimately, it integrates to my workflow (urgh, I used
>> that in a serious email, shoot me :p). I can use the editor of my choice
>> to write my mail, I can use the handler of my choice to handle it.
>> etc...
> works well for you, but wouldn't for me
>> Personally the only gripe I have with email, is the idiots who insist on
>> using html for email. Whilst I don't think we have evolveed to the
>> pinacle of what the technology can do. What we have arrived at is a
>> system that for the large part, works amazingly well.
> Only one or two use cases work well, others are complicated and inhibit
> workflow, what I'm getting at here is that there are lots of things
> which can change.
>> Any new system would need to be backwardly compatable with the existing
>> systems, other wise you are going to suffer the video phone problem.
> I'm leaving that to pvanhoof to worry about, all I'm interested in is
> the knowledge systems that are required in order to build a better user
> experience.
> In the end, this is all about user experience, human computer
> interaction and usability... Three subjects we're all aware you feel are
> satanic spawn of UI designers.
> *sigh* wouldn't it be nice if every linux user was like you, then
> microsoft would have an even bigger monopoly.
> BR,
>  K
> P.S. There's also the fact that being a command line zealot you
> highlight your terrible ability to spell to the world.
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