[sclug] Linux desktop alternative

[one.Tel]

I agree with both Paul and Chris - while the work of developing Linux
desktops evolves into ever more useful implementations (and the key word
here is 'useful') for example Lindows, and both KDE and GNOME are skinnable
to produce a very Windows like look, the bottom line is applications.
Microsoft has a big lock-in here and it will take time to significantly
penetrate the installed base. BTW, I'm not against the effort here, not by
any means, just recognising that there's peoples perceptions and feelings to
deal with. Not everyone makes logical choices!

On the subject of browser compatibility Paul, I just loaded pcworld.co.uk
into IE 6.0.28, Netscape 7.01 and Opera 6.04 and they all behaved
themselves. Opera complained at a MS proprietary DHTML api call, and
Netscape didn't like a wee bit of JavaScript. Hey, I could care less ;-) If
I'm building serious web apps then I stick to the standards!

On the server side (Chris' thread) there is much more scope. Chris, although
you have a heavy investment in ASP, there is going to be a significant
payback if it can be ported to JSP as a low priority task. PHP is popular
but JSP is the future, as it's part of the J2EE spec and Tomcat is an
excellent servlet server - IMHO of course.

Good luck Pieter!! See you next time Chris.

Lars

----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Aitken" <chris at ion-dreams.com>
To: "Paul Vanlint" <paul at polyzing.com>; "Pieter Claassen"
<pieter at openauth.co.uk>
Cc: <sclug at sclug.org.uk>
Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2003 1:21 PM
Subject: RE: [sclug] Linux desktop alternative


> I find this prospect very interesting.
>
> As the nominated IT guy in an SME, I am trying to implement a Linux
server -
> mainly because MS Smallbiz server is rudely expensive. In fact the whole
MS
> licensing thing is extremely costly.
>
> A move to Linux would be good - as all that is needed in the majority of
> cases is office applications. However, our engineering department use
> AutoCAD. Not currently available on Linux, and way to costly to change
> drawing package.
>
> However, an MS replacement is very attractive for all other users,
> especially with StarOffice 6.
>
> The killer app for me would be a proper ASP (Active Server Page) Server
for
> Linux. One that is 100% compatible with IIS 5 and above. Our intranet &
> extranet have been developed using ASP, and we couldn't swap to PHP etc
> without retraining. ChiliSoft
> just doesn't cut it.
>
> On another note - agreeing with Paul, there is absolutely no reason why a
> website should not be multi platform - after all, it is there to be viewed
> by everyone. PC World's website is particularly appalling when viewed in
> Opera - which happens to be the most standards compliant browser
available!
>
> Anyhow - I hope to be there on the 18th of March.
>
> Chris
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: sclug-admin at sclug.org.uk [mailto:sclug-admin at sclug.org.uk]On
> Behalf Of Paul Vanlint
> Sent: 20 February 2003 13:07
> To: Pieter Claassen
> Cc: sclug at sclug.org.uk
> Subject: Re: [sclug] Linux desktop alternative
>
>
> Hi,
>
> I have recently moved to Basingstoke and for the past 3 months have been
> trying to make the Reading meeting. One thing after another conspired to
> keep me away. The last one was my beautiful baby daughter was born on
> the 12th. I knew it would be on that day. lol
>
> Anyway, I thought I would say hi and throw my 2p worth in on this email.
>
> Seems like you were talking about a business environment, in which case
> ignore item 1 below.
>
> I have been running a dual Windows 98/Linux desktop for about 3 years
> now and slowly but surely, I can use my Windows machine less and less.
> Great advances have been made with OpenOffice, Ximian evolution and
> applications of that type.
>
> I am currently running Red Hat 8.0 and I do still definitely need my
> Windows OS for a number of reasons:
>
> 1) I like to play my old games, so there is a backward compatibility
> issue. I know that there has been a lot of work done trying to get
> Windows games to run well under Linux, but I haven't tried to see how
> well they work. It is easier for me to keep a Win 98 OS for playing
> them. Has anyone else tried?
>
> 2) Many websites seem to have been designed for and tested under IE.
> Unfortunately this means that they have not necessarily been designed to
> the HTML standard and so Mozilla etc. do not always quite work properly.
> For instance www.pcworld.co.uk seems to have problems under Mozilla.
> Hopefully this will be less important as web sites move toward more
> standard (and less broken) implementations.
>
> 3) Legacy apps. There are some apps that I have used for years on
> Windows that I know very well. While there are alternatives under Linux,
> I am not ready to invest the time to learn new apps. I know that Wine is
> getting better, but again, have not really tried it out. Can anyone else
> relate their experience of using it.
>
> 4) Evolution seems to have some problems with HTML based email. This
> isn't a big issue for me, but in the general case, I can see it could be
> important for some ex-windows users.
>
>
> On the plus side, it would be much harder to do without my Linux OS than
> my windows OS due to the software development work I do.
>
> Regards,
>
> Paul Vanlint.
>
> On Thu, 2003-02-20 at 10:29, Pieter Claassen wrote:
> > Dear all,
> >
> > This email is just a quick commentary on what I am doing. Please feel
free
> > to offer your opinion.
> >
> > One of the projects that OpenAuth worked on in the last few months is
> > putting together a MS desktop replacement. I did this because I believe
> that
> > this is a good idea for a  number of reasons:
> > 1. If we all keep on buying MS for our desktops, then there is a serious
> > issue with long term systemic risk. It is not a good idea to have a
single
> > and only option in the desktop market for both licensing reasons as well
> as
> > functionality reasons (I think the details here speaks for itself, but
if
> > anybody feels it is not true, please speak up).
> > 2. Linux can and does provide the basic functionality to run your
business
> > functions (even though this is more difficult to get going)
> > 3. The total effort required to do version control in Linux is lower
than
> MS
> > and more accessible to the wider development community.
> > 4. Linux is cheaper, easier and more flexible to support remotely.
> > 5. Linux  security is in general better designed than MS (not always
> > consistent implementation though)
> > 6. It is less risky and less expensive to run Linux on your desktop
(under
> > very specific conditions!)
> >
> > To have done this, I had to resolve the following issues:
> > 1. Hardware compatibility and support issues (Linux is clearly more
> > difficult to run on all hardware)
> > 2. Functionality issues. I had to put together a complete functionality
> list
> > of what you want to do with your PC and then source and install those
> > applications and hardware.
> > 3. Upgrading issues. How to reasonably upgrade a system without braking
> > custom installs.
> > 4. Cater for emergent requirements. The better something works, the more
> it
> > is used, the more they want to do with it ;-)
> > 5. Build a secure remote support infrastructure.
> > 6. Demonstrate that the TCO for Linux is really lower than MS.
> >
> > So, the system that I have build is:
> > 1. Debian based and all packages managed with APT.
> > 2. Ethernet and wireless networking enabled.
> > 3. Functionality list: StarOffice suite, multimedia (video, DVD, CD
> playing
> > and ripping), Internet browser and mail, CD writer, scanner support,
> printer
> > support.
> > 4. Recovery strategy with backup and restore.
> > 5. Remote management via OpenVPN (works over NATted gateways)
> > 6. All system based on standardised and tested hardware and peripherals.
> We
> > only supply and support a limited, but complete list of scanners, cd
> > writers, wireless cards, printers etc.
> >
> > To demonstrate the TCO argument, I designed a remotely supported
scalable
> > (1 -x users)infrastructure that is primarily rented from OpenAuth. User
> can
> > buy the hardware as well if they feel so inclined.
> >
> > Here are some comments on what I have learned and what I think about
this:
> > 1. Once everything is set up for a standard build, it actually is quite
> > stable and functionality is comparable to the stuff we had on Windows
3.11
> > (yeah, I also wonder why we ever had to buy 95?). As far as I can see,
the
> > basic functional requirements can be met with Linux. I never really
> managed
> > to use all the options in my printer and scanning software anyhow.
> > 2. Linux functionality is increasing rapidly through standardisation!
This
> > is for me an important one because I believe this growth is much more
> rapid
> > than the windows growth. To quote some examples, just look at ALSA and
> SANE,
> > the sound and scanning environments. Each minor version release does
make
> a
> > huge difference in ease of detecting devices and number of devices
> detected.
> > 3. I believe the TCO calculations are correct (you can get the paper on
> the
> > website at
> > http://www.openauth.co.uk:8080/files/asset_management/tco_desktop).
> > 4. The solution looks like it will benefit the SME environment most
(more
> > than single users).
> > 5. There are case studies on the TCO for Linux in the server
environment,
> > but there is very little known about the support costs for Linux in the
DT
> > environment. Only time will tell if this is working.
> >
> > I am giving a demonstration of the system on the 18th of March in
> Bracknell.
> > Please let me know if anybody is interested in attending.
> >
> > Do you believe that Linux can compete with MS on the desktop?
> > Does any of you use Linux exclusively on your desktop and if not, why
not?
> >
> > Regards,
> > Pieter
> >
> >
> > -----------------------------
> > Pieter Claassen
> > pieter at openauth.co.uk
> > http://www.openauth.co.uk
> >
> > OpenAuth
> > Tel: 01344 390530
> > DDI: 01344 390630/390631
> > Fax number: 01344 390700
> > Mobile:  0776 665 6924
> >
> > Highview House
> > Charles Square
> > Bracknell
> > Berkshire
> > RG12 1DF
> >
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