[Sussex] Giving something back

[The ol' tealeg]

Nik wrote:
----------
> oi oi.

Evening ;)
 
> Hmmm but I think peer review works better when theres no political gain to be
> had from commenting and bug submittance. peer review at the office can be
> quite contentios.

I would agree.  Note that this is a symptom of a closed source world.  If everyone out there can look at your source then there is more insentive to make it clean, tidy and elegant from day one.  My point here is that software houses hide behind binarys - it's worth noting that a project team that will show you their source is one that is prepared to take on some criticism in order to get things right.
 
> personally id ask jon about working at actus.. he might have a different view.

I was certainly impressed with what I was told about actus - you seem to have your heads screwed on right.  Really I should make it clear that I was talking about industry on a different scale - Actus IT is all well and good, and could be a big company one day, but I was really talking about the problems that are endemic to lareg organisations.  The nature of this list leads me to couch this in IT terms, but a lot of those problems (in particular the directionlessness of middle management and the senior management's detachment from reality) have obvious effects.  In this country we reward medocrity far to strongly.  We, as a nation, despise and fear anything new or daring and we shun those who suggest such things.  Frankly there is a lack of bravery in British business - I think you address a similar point later in your response...
 
> well the way to get it to work is to be BLOODY minded and just ignore people
> who come up with reasons why and hwo it wont work and just go a do it. but be
> prepared to work hard, clearly explain and always deliver.

Been there.  We got LINUX into Rentokil Initial Group by just building a Samba server and putting on the network.  The first anyone new of this was when the Network manager wondered what this new Domain "Arbitesgruppe" was doing on his network.  That action proved to the general manager of IT that the thing at least worked.  It was a long road from there, and a lot more people had to come one side - this was the time when the IT press were asking "is LINUX ready for the enterprise?" in every other article.  The management took some convincing, but by the time I left that company they were rolling it out as a standard file, print and webserver.  Now 3 years later they're evaluating it for desktop use and StarOffice is already rolling out.  

That sounds like a positive story, but I'll tell you what happened shortly after that initial LINUX install.  Paul and I made sure we made a certain amount of time each week just looking at stuff that interested us.  THe LINUX machine came from that, I also had BeOS 4 on my desktop machine, running the Gobe Productive 2.0 office suite, which, at the time, knocked anything on LINUX into a cocked hat - this was the time when the first KDE had just come out and Gnome 1.0 was a while off.  Of course, as soon as we started doing things that got noticed people in other parts of the department started to get their noses out of joint.  Political pressure was levied and Paul and I all got transfered into the development team where they stopped us from experimenting and tried to de-skill us and shape us into mindless drones like the rest of them (about 60% of Rentokil's developers are ex post-room boys who have been taught to maintain one system (which was developed externally) and not
  to ask questions).
 
> Well GHW have succesfully implemented Open Source in the back office. not sure
> how they are putting back but then they do pay me and matt to carry on the
> fight!

In this relationship it is not the ultimate customer but the people who service their needs that need to invest in the continued development and maintenance of Open Source Software.  I would never expect an operation on your scale to support a full time developer, however I'm sure you can do your part in terms of bug reporting, promotion and possibly even documentation.
 
> Id rather people did the bug submittal and documentation work as well as cover
> the explaining to newbies ;-) leave the developers alone to code and improve
> and work on their pet projects.
 
Err.. I agree, see above.
 
> > more we're finding that the tools businesses need to run LINUX successfully
> > need some commercial development to make them truly useful.  Surely this is
> we ? we who ? actually business can use exsisting tools and all we do is
> reducate the users. The tools are out , installe, operational and work. I dont
> feel they can make more useful.

You are right that eduction is half the battle.  If we could convince people that they don't need an Exchange clone to get the job done (surely collaborative calendars can be achieved from a web server or a simple database application!) then a lot of this problem might go away.

However, as a lot of clients are going to want a direct replacement for Exchange on LINUX, where do we look?  Answer?

Samsung, 
SuSE,
Lotus (IBM),

... and if we want an Exchange compatible client:

Ximian Connect commercial extension to Ximian Evolution.

That's the worse case - we don't want that stuff - we want truely free and (crucially) open solutions!

> well im pushing for a few k to spend on the debian stand at the next linux
> expo. but then I was so di-enfranchised by the expo. the expo represents
> everything closed-source about linux. we need a national Linux user group
> meeting at which we invite the vendors. each group contributes to stand space
> and location etc etc etc ..... maybe we do it at Gatwick <grin>

Here here!

This is exactly what I mean.  Why go to the effort of tearing down Microsoft's monopoly just to replace them with other large companies.  

I for one am very impressed with Mac OS X - but I am not impressed that in order to maintain my wifes machine and run new software as it come out, I will have to invest $100 in OS X 10.2 sometime in the next few months.  I will be very unimpressed again when 10.3 comes out shortly afterwards.  

Large companies horde wealth and eventually lead to fewer people making a living.  This country will be economically better off with twenty thousand small LINUX consultancies than it would be with a few huge companies doing the same job.  If these companies support open software (by giving back rather than just using) they can ensure a market for themselves in the future.  If, however, these companies battle it out by extending their offerings with proprietary code then eventually a few big players will come to dominate the market and we'll be right back where we started from.


> Ok lets review ..
> 
> Over two years Ago I went alone into the wilderness and sid to my bank im
> going to give away software to small and medium businesses . They wil pay me
> to install software that delivers better functionality and resources and
> reliability than MS. Man did they look nervous.
> 
> Earlier this year I sold up for 120k to take a stake in a PLC which needed my
> skills and product to offer to their customers and who wanted to give
> shareholders a real product value. ( all traditional stuff ) . Ok so we have
> had some ups and downs as the existing management and staff had to deal with
> Nik Butler ... Ive taken them from 4k sales proposals a month closing on 2k of
> business to 120k o month sales proposals and 30k month business. significant
> growth demonstrating that the market really wants to be involved in open
> source.

Agreed, and well done to you!  I don't doubt the ability of the SME's to move quickly to more cost effective solutions - it's the stagnated corporations that will be the problem.  I'm sure most SME's don't exist in an environment where it is easier to sign off millions of pounds in capital expenditure than it is to make a decision.  Unfortunately this is the norm in corporate Britain.  Our companies seem to need to fail utterly before they can accept that the world changes.

 
> Long term aim of my involvement in Actus is to push Opensource into Health and
> Education and SMEs. Meanwhile ive managed to encourage and move well over 60
> sites to linux. Yes I am going to take on Microsoft and yes I am going to move
> them out of the south. thats my aim. 
> 
> now I understand many on this list and off call me unreal and a dreamer
> usually theie the ones who never get off the couch to get the TV remote cause
> theyd rather wait for something better to come along.

:)  I think the figures speak for themselves...


> So Im gonna get up and make a choice. If I make it loud and clear and
> effective having converted customers ( old ones like Reeves independent
> options ) to new ones like Maverick Media ( who watches the Sci-fi channel ).
> True im not doing work on the Kernel, Apps or Utils and I make occasional
> contributions to IPCOP and PHPGroupware/Helpdesk as well as Docs. But I am
> making it clear that this can be done.

Yes, and you're making a contribution.  What we need, however, is big companies supporting open source development - achieveing their goals through the community and enriching the shared toolset.  I have on several occasions developed bespoke software which had no competitve or saleable value to the company commisioning it, but which could benefit the community as a whole and could have been acieved more quickly, easily and effectively with community involvement.  These things are win/win.  American universities and industry seen to be able to do it.  People involved in the W3C generally can do it.  Large asian companies can do it.  Several French, German, Danish and Dutch companies do it - but I cannot name one major UK company who are prepared to do it.

> Ive been taking a real risk on my earnings, income and lifestyle ive done it
> for something that people have done in their own spare times. Wierd no ?
> 
> Hmmm maybe I have not answered you points, and certainlu its not answered from
> the developers point of view.

Well, yes and no.  You represent the sort of companies I'd like to see everywhere in a service based IT culture rather than a commodity based one.  You seem to behave as I would expect and it certainly seems to be working.

I should appologise that the original points weren't made clearly - there was a stream of conciousness thing going on ;)
 
> I guess I might wonder Geoff whats your real question... you prepared to take
> some real risks and chance ? Get off the Couch , see if theres something
> better on the other side ??

Well, in short, yes.  Steve and I actually talked about setting an operation like yours up - we even met to talk about it just days before we met up for the last LUG meet.  That is why Steve and I were so interested in what you said about Actus.  Partially Actus's existance gives me heart - it tells me that it can be done - and succesfully to.  Unfortunately the other thing it gives me is instant, established competition - something I wasn't counting, I mean if there was a cool LINUX company in the area I'd know about it right *doh*.

The thing is I see no point in setting up in competition with you guys.  You're using exactly the same product differentiation we would have used!

So where does that leave me?  I could set up a small software house writing bespoke software for LINUX, but I have to wonder, given your current user base, and their requirements, would I make enough to pay the rent right now?

The whole idea here was never to make money - I seriously want to work in a job that I believe in an develop the technology I love.  I was (and am) prepared to go it alone to do this, but I'm not prepared to jump blindly into something that'll leave me pennyless.

> Note: posted late at night, whilst working on compiling stuff and copying
> stuff and watching Pulp Fiction.

Note: posted late at night (00:37 ish) after a long nights Ruby hacking to get a job done for FreeRIDE... INSIDE should get a look in this weekend all things being equal.

--
GJT

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