[Sussex] Straw Poll

[Geoff Teale]

Steve wrote:
------------
> This is very true.  It also has to be noted that there is a huge,
> huge defence between a text editor and a word processor.  Although
> they look the same at first glance (and to a PHB) the jobs they do
> and how they do it is very, very different.  They way the "text" is
> laid out is very different and the way one moved about the documents
> is miles apart.

Indeed.  It is noteable that I generally do all my word-processing in Emacs
as well though - Emacs is flexible enough to do _word_processing_ (it has
modes specifically for word-processing) it's just not a WYSIWYG layout tool
(this seems to become part of the role of a word processor now, it always
used to be a different application - that seemed to happen around the time
people started adopting Windows and moving away from DOS).
 
> I think you mean SHIFT-Z-Z - Go back to Emacs you young wipper-
> snapper. :-) 

Esc drops you out of insert mode, the Z's were capitalised, though I
actually had to think  very hard about it and it may well be wrong, it's a
key sequence that is coded into my muscle memory!
 
> vi is not awkward it is efficient and clean.  Once you know you way
> around vi it is very powerful.  

Thats true, and it also true to say that I use emacs without ever once using
the cursor keys or the menus, but that is something that comes with time -
to a new user the easiest command-line editor I have seen is GNU Nano.  

>There is a very good reason for
> the lack of status information in vi.  When vi was first developed
> lines to the Unix system were very slow (and some of the VPNs I 
> used to day seam just as bad).  vi does the bear minimum, and thus
> does not put an unnecessary load on the line between you're terminal
> and the host.  Consider my example above of "cw".  When entering this
> mode all vi has to do is:
>    move cursor to end of word
>    print "$"
>    move cursor back
> But vim has to:
>    delete all the characters in the word
>    move cursor to the bottom line of the terminal
>    print "INSERT"
>    move cursor back to starting point.
> Even for a small change that's at least twice the number of control
> characters and for no added benefit.  Emacs is much worse - the status
> line has to be updated with every key press!


Yup, all good points.  The point is however, times have changed, vi hasn't -
vim, kvim and gvim exist for a reason!  I'm not really trying to criticise
vi, it is _very_ powerful and has a place in the world, I'm just suprised by
it's enduring popularity.

> I can't speak for Gentoo, but Debian's reason for switching away from
> vi as the base editor is simple.  vi is a bit big compared with the 
> others, and as this editor has to be available on very simple install
> media (read floppy) every byte saved is room for more in the kernel.

I think Gentoo view it thus:

	1. It's small (same reasons as Debian)
	2. It's way more intuitive.  As a new user installing Gentoo it's
far too easy to completly trash important files if 	you don't understand
vi.


> It is not!  Many of these newer and so called fancier editors do not
> provide the same power as good old vi.  Emacs' search and replace is
> far less powerful then ex's and I have been known from time to time
> to drop out of XEmacs and into vi to do some of the more complex
> search and replaces.  

Hmm, I would suggest that it would depend on what major mode you are using
and what what minor modes are running on it  -very little functionality is
fixed at the level provided by fundemental mode - in this vi and emacs
differ greatly.  It would be nice to have something a little more powerful
in fundmental mode though.

>And for those of you how are asking "Why is
> he talking about ex in a vi rant?" it is because ex is the command
> mode of vi as well as being an editor in its own right.
> 
> Sorry for the rant - but I haven't had a good rant on here for some
> time now and then need overtook me. :-)

I know, I know :)  Feels good though, huh?

-- 
GJT
Free Software, Free Society. 
http://www.fsf.org   http://www.gnu.org


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