[OT] Bush vs. Gore - Was: [Sussex] Linux is capitalism, Microsoft is communism?

[Geoffrey John Teale]

Wow, I really don't have time to keep up with this debate I'm afraid.
However, I'll try my best ;-)

On Tue, 2004-10-26 at 18:21 +0000, Stephen Williams wrote:
> Nice to see you've done your homework Geoff. Personally I'm not
> concerned enough to worry about it. I'm more concerned that John
> Prescott (and others) are campaigning for a referendum in favour of
> regional authorities contrary to UK electoral law. Do we really need
> more politicians?

Here we can agree - better democracy does not mean having more figure
head bodies, it means having truer representation where the power really
rests.  I for one would support the following:

 - The removal of the monarch as the head of state (that doesn't mean I
want us to stop having a Queen, it means she shouldn't at any level be
involved in our system of government).
- The abolition of the house of lords.
- The removal of religuous text and procedure from government.
- The replacement of the "first past the post" electoral system with
"one person one vote" on a national scale.  Whilst the Conservatives
have traditionally been against proportional represntation I have a
feeling they might change there minds following the next general
election.  As a "smaller" party they'll begin to see that there
representation in parliament is a much lower percentage than percentage
of people across the country who support them.  Whilst that might suit
my political views, it wouldn't be a true representation of the country
as a whole and is thus a step further than I'd like to be from true
democracy.

> However, I still do not believe that the US Supreme Court, or the US
> people, would tolerate electoral fraud.

..and yet when people complain about this kind of fraud, with solid
evidence to support their complaint you dismiss them as "whingers"?  You
can't have it both ways?  How more intollerant can you get?

Question.. did the left wing claim the same when Bush Snr won, or when
Reagan won?  This isn't just normal political game playing, or whinging,
this is a significant proportion of a nation (and indeed other nations)
looking at the available facts and complaining about an injustice.  The
problem is that this injustice was carried out at the highest level of
the US legal system.  The US supreme court blantantly disregarded the
will of the voters of the state of Florida and decide an election in a
non-democratic manner.  Kill duke and your a muderer, kill a king and
you're king...

I'm not making this up.. the republican party has audited and ratified
the count of votes in Florida and has agreed that Gore obtained more
votes than Bush, despite all the messing around with chads and illegal
military proxy votes.. so even the republican party admits that Bush did
not win Florida in democratic election.  Without Florida Bush did not
have the electoral college votes to win the presidency and as such he is
president of the USA because five supreme court judges appointed by
Republicans and with strong ties to that party declared him to be so.

I wonder how you would feel if we all voted in the next general election
and it looked like the Conservative party won, but the Labour party
demanded a recount and during that recount got a court order to stop
that recount and declare Tony Blair prime minister?  Would you feel
agreived?  Would you whine about it?  Where would you mount your
challenge to that decision?  How many people would believe you if, for
example Rupert Murdoch's media outlets desided to declare your views as
lunatic?  

The simple truth is that if people in a position of power, and with
powerful friends, desides something then there's very little the average
citizen can do about it.  In the words of Frank Zappa, "as it applies to
you and me our country isn't free".

> 
> Interesting program on Channel 4 on this very topic last night. Not very
> edifying for those involved.

Yup I saw it.  I don't think we're that much better over here.  The
money involved isn't as big, but it's hard to ignore the links that the
Labour party have with Microsoft, formula one, the Casino industry and
indeed your friend and mine Rupert Murdoch.  Nor is it hard to see how
EDS got a succession of government contracts under the tories in the
80's and early 90's...

> In the end I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree when it comes to
> politics.

Happily so.  While I hold stong views it's important that all of us are
allowed to have and express any views will truely feel.

My respect for peoples opions is based one criteria alone.  Did they
form that opinion after rational thought based on good information or
did they read it in the (Daily Mail || Daily Express || Sun ||Mirror ||
Evening Standard || The Times || The Telegraph || The Beano) or see it
on (Sky News || Fox News || CNN || ITN || Al-jazera || Men & Motors)? 

-- 
Geoffrey John Teale <tealeg at member.fsf.org>
Free Software Foundation