[Sussex] Rantting (Was: Mail client suggestions)

[Steve Dobson]

Colin

On Thu, Apr 14, 2005 at 08:10:55AM +0100, Colin Tuckley wrote:
> steve at dobson.org wrote:
> 
> >   Compare the search and replace functionality.  With GUIs 
> > you get a box that allows the input of the string to search for and
> > the string to replace (and some other minor options like direction or
> > case sensitivity).
> 
> This is a sweeping over generalisation!

Yes, it was a bit wasn't it. :-)
 
> AND
> 
> more importantly it's the sort of statement that Windows users who are
> considering using Linux see and then think "Arrogant buggers, I don't think
> I'll bother"

Fine, let them stick to Windows then.  Now there is arrogant statement.  But
I think I can justify it.

For me F/OSS is about freedom; freedom to use the software of your choice.
That includes using GUIs or sticking with Windows if that is what you want.
 
> So - here in the public forum we need to adopt a much more tolerant attitude
> to things like GUIs or we will alienate the people we are trying to move to
> Linux.

I am tolerance personified!  Doesn't my statement above on freedom prove that?
I never said that it was invalid to use GUIs or that I was intolerant of those
that use them.  I use a GUI desktop most of the time (but it runs more shells
than anything else).  What I was saying was that GUIs put a limit on the
way you interact with the computer - a point you appear to broadly agree
with.

This is, in fact, a well documented problem of GUIs.  By limiting the way
you interact with a computer imposes a limit on the way a user thinks that
a computer can be used.  This is the same principle as George Orwell's 
Newspeak: by reducing the vocabulary of the language one reduces the
ways in which people can think criminal thoughts.

If you restrict my (and everyone else) freedom to rant then you restrict
the ways in which knowledge is transfered, and that only perpetuates the
ignorance.  I object to that, I object most strongly.
 
> And, back on topic for editors - I use a GUI text editor quite a lot, it has
> syntax hi lighting for almost every programming language I use and is user
> extensible. It has search/replace with regular expressions, it has
> intelligent (block) cut and paste. AND, shock horror, it runs on Windows!
>
> > All GUI interfaces are limiting.  That's the nature of the beast.
> 
> No they are not, most are it is true, but there are some fully featured ones
> (for example the Mozilla config file HTML interface).
 
Of course there are exceptions. I never said that there wasn't.  And if
you start adding the exceptions to a rant it really gets in the way of a
good rant. :-)

> > I've rejected
> > Integrated Development Environments (IDEs) because of the power they take
> > away from me.
> 
> 99% of the time you don't need that power and for that 99% of your time your
> productivity is much higher in an IDE.

No, I disagree.  I use two tools to build my software (ant(1) for Java and
make(1) for everything else).  When I am developing I have two GUI windows
open: one is a shell where I type the build command, and the other is the
text editor.  It doesn't take me switch focus to the shell and type the
build command than to move the pointer to the build button and click it.

It doesn't take me any longer to configure the build tool than it would to
configure the IDE - I have a large library of working examples that I can
copy and edit.

Also, I have found that text editors in IDEs are not as powerful as 
dedicated text editors, they just aren't as feature rich.  So I am more
productive because I can do more in the editor.

But for me the real payback is in that 1% that I can do in my build tools
that can't be done in the IDE.  I can therefore complete the project 
quicker and move on.
 
> > Perfect sense.  And thanks for the opening for a rant :-)
> 
> Yes, Rant! and this isn't the place for those, here we need to remember that
>  there are beginners who want help (and not the RTFM sort of help).
> 
> This is the public face of SLUG - we advertise it as such at places like the
> Computer Fair - so we had damn well better make it look a friendly helpful
> place!
> 
> Perhaps we need another mailing list for more complex geek type discussions.

Again I have to disagree.  Mixing both geek and nugget (to use John's term)
together benefit both.  If the list was split then I, for one, would pay a 
lot less attention to nugget postings, and I guess that a number of nuggets
would not subscribe to the geek list.

This list is for "Linux and Open Source enthusiasts" (to quote from the 
new flyer currently under revision), and enthusiasts have strong views.
Sometimes those view maybe expressed with some passion, and sometimes
that may also cause people to take offence.  When humans communicate
that can happen, it life, live with it.

If this list is going to become so political correct that we stop
posting just because someone may take offence they we will be throwing 
the baby out with the bathwater.  It will become dull and lifeless.

So I grant forgiveness to anyone, now and in the future, that posts 
something to which I take offence.  I ask only that you forgive me for
mine blunders too.  As a result we should live on a much more interesting
list.

Steve
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