[SWLUG] #swlug IRC channel location - reasons to move

[Dave Cridland]

On Mon Aug 15 10:58:22 2005, Pete Prior wrote:
> Well we seem to be following the same pattern as always.  Discuss 
> something to death and never actually get anything done.
> 
> The problem is that freenode isn't broken.  It works most of the 
> time, but there are annoyances and policies that could be avoided 
> by switching to an alternative network.

The other problem is that the majority of reasons for wishing to 
switch involve personal opinion, rather than technical argument.

> Here are my reasons for wanting to switch:
> 
> a) I don't agree with the way freenode is run. This includes:
> 
> Fundraising drives - in the past used to pay lilo (the 'owner' of 
> freenode)'s mortgage.
> See http://slashdot.org/articles/02/08/17/2147232.shtml
> See http://www.kainx.org/journal/?view=20020613
> 
> 
I don't actually see a major concern here. If people want to donate 
to PDPC, and thereby pay lilo's mortgage, I don't care. If I were 
forced into such a donation, I might see things differently. 
Basically, if lilo's in a position to convince people that PDPC is 
doing "useful work", and ends up having his mortgage paid, good luck 
to him.

Of course, I'll freely admit to being jealous, but that's hardly a 
reason to move.


> Strongarm management tactics - including not allowing people who 
> donate servers op privileges,

You mean I can't buy ops? Damn.

I see things somewhat differently. I see lilo trying to build a 
network for discussion about open source projects, and he happens to 
use IRC for this because it's so ubiquitous. The thing that gets 
people's backs up is that he doesn't treat it as Yet Another IRC 
Network.

Hence there's global notices actually getting used, and different 
policies that than traditional free-for-all:

>  and absurd channel naming rules.

Like that.


> See 
> http://linuxart.com/log/archives/2005/03/04/photography-is-moving-huh/
> See http://www.lilofree.net/bully.php
> See http://www.lilofree.net/irq-quotes.php
> 
> 
Oddly enough, I don't really agree with the title of bully.php, for 
instance. Here, lilo obviously starts by trying to clear up what he 
feels are misconceptions, but the other party just accuses him of 
using the network for private gain. When lilo feels that he's getting 
nowhere, he basically tells them to put up or shut up.

How would you choose differently?


> I see this is one of the major reasons I don't use / like Microsoft 
> products.  Sure, they work for the most part of the time, but I 
> sure as hell don't agree with the ethics of the company.
> 
> 
Yeah, it's disgraceful. People paying their mortgage by providing a 
service for free which several thousand people find useful - nobody 
should be allowed to donate of their own free will.


> b) Network reliabilty
> 
> The network can get reasonably splitty at times, and lilo has a 
> habit of "rehubbing" things rather a lot.

Yeah, but frankly, it's no worse than any other IRC network I've 
seen. Lilo happens to rehub manually, rather than allowing the 
network to split several times a day of its own accord.

IRC's technology is screwed in several different ways - the fact it 
even *needs* hubs is a near-fatal flaw. I don't think you can really 
blame lilo for trying to reorgnize the network to avoid wholly 
unexpected netsplits.

>   They seem to also be switching to a non standard ircd which 
> changes your hostmask based on whether you have identd or not.  
> This has the potential to break a lot of banmasks and bots.
> 
> 
'kay, I'll agree with the technical issue here.

However, #swlug doesn't exactly have a history of banmasks or bots.

> c) Proposed changes to nick rules
> 
> See http://freenode.net/policy_draft_1123442180.shtml#usernames
> 
> This would mean nickname would own nickname_ as well as others.  
> While this wouldn't affect me, it would affect people like Arthur_ 
> and again, is an un-needed policy.
> 
> 
I can agree with this, too. There are a small number of fringe cases 
where this is a problem.

> There are alternatives, OFTC being the primary one we are looking 
> at as this network became popular as an alternative to freenode the 
> last time lilo caused trouble (almost causing #debian to leave (see 
> previous slashdot link) as well as spawning www.lilofree.net and 
> subsequent irc servers).

Yes, there are alternatives - there always are. So which one, and 
why? And, more importantly, why would this improve the "IRC 
experience" for the typical user?

Dave.