[Swlug] DIY Geiger counter success?

[Rhys Sage]

This is the latest edition - it's as close as I can get for the moment to the PDF. I've ordered some 2M, 5M and 10M resistors. I don't want to use all my 1M resistors on one circuit. I've got the Buck converter turned off at the moment so it's getting about 9v to the circuit. I ordered a boost converter with the resistors since the circuit on the PDF needs a 9v to 27v boost converter. I checked and the BPX61 should be OK up to 32v. Being the cheaparse that I am, I ordered everything from AliExpress so it'll be a week or more before it gets here. 

Here's a link to a picture of the circuit:
https://yt3.ggpht.com/2siN7_k3wjj-HK4c5i7p705Ojs-Je9_DBwp1Ys70hI-VJ1sOlXn_6fKlls5uk5tUSidIzttkuzsJOg=s4096-rw-nd-v1

I dislike he webp stuff but scaling works well. The actual image is 8mp so i think 4096 is about right. This is the same image that's on my latest YouTube post.

Somewhere on my YouTube short videos I tested a circuit in action that had a voltage reducer that I'd designed. It worked really well in my microcontroller lab. It gave me a safe 5v for my ATTiny85 and 12v for my big relay. When I put it in place and switched it on, it was all perfectly fine then I saw a trickle of smoke coming from the resistor that I'd paired with a zener. Who knew resistors were also perfect fuses?

I put a small speaker on the output line and it gave a faint and consistent clicking noise. I have tried simply unplugging the photodiode and nothing changes with the clicking so I am assuming that the 100nf capacitor is charging then discharging. I have put the transistor on my scope and used the test function. It seemed to test OK. I'm encouraged by the clicking because it's clearly doing something even if it's not the right thing and because nothing yet had caught fire or gone boom. Fortunately things catching fire or going boom are very rare.

My thought is that not having a 10M resistor might be the reason I'm hearing the clicking noise. I'm going to get the boost converter and 10M resistor in place before anything else to try to get as close as possible to the circuit diagram. 

My oscilloscope is quite limited in what it does. It's a good beginner's scope and I'm happy with what it can do at the moment. I didn't want to buy one that was too complex or too expensive. I like that this one charges off a USB port. My microcontroller lab is limited in power - I have a 12v power supply and that's it. The lighting is 12v too. The actual level is something like 14.2 - 13.7v. Nearer to the charge controller the voltage is fractionally higher. The wiring system is multiple lengths of 12 - 14AWG connected with crimp spade connectors. Anyway, the scope is a DSO-TC3 from AliExpress.

I do notice the circuit is supposed to be shielded. That will come in later. I can always get an aluminium box to put it all in, once the circuit is working. It is kinda shielded at the moment as my microcontroller lab is not connected to mains electricity and is inside a steel body converted bus. I can't pick up much wifi nor phone signal inside. It's not a Faraday cage but it's close to it. I suppose I could always put the circuit in a plastic box and wrap the box in aluminium foil. 

The tritium won't be awfully radioactive. It's enough though to be detectable over background. My understanding is it will give maybe 6 detectable events a minute. I remember I almost bought a tritium torch some 30 years ago. I had no particular use for an expensive torch at the time and didn't but by now the tritium would have decayed enough to be useless. It has something like a 25 year half life.

I don't know whether the power lines that I run my microcontroller lab from carry any electrical noise. If they do, it's coming from my Renogy Rover 30 MPPT unit. The only other thing connected aside from my LED light strip is my door controller (which I do aim to replace with something home-brew).

As a thought, my microconroller lab is parked underneath a power line. That should be a 60hz signal. I'm not sure of the voltage. It could be 120v but I know I'm about 20 feet from a 16KV transformer supplying 2-phase power.

My AliExpress order was made last night and has not yet shipped. It can take between a week and two weeks to get here from China. I could have ordered from DigiKey or somebody like that and had it in a week at ten times the cost. Sadly, Radio Shack went bust here, 5 years ago. Tandy in the UK went bust 30 years ago. I used to go to Tom Whitehouse in Swansea market for electronic bits but there's nothing that I've found here in Lexington. I don't think there's anything in Columbia either. There might be in Charlotte but that's 120 miles away. I don't mind driving but as I drive every day for work, I don't drive if I don't absolutely have to. 

Rhys Sage






On Monday 17 March 2025 at 04:15:02 GMT-4, James R. Haigh (+ML.LUG subaddress) <jrhaigh+ml.lug at runbox.com> wrote: 





At Z+0000=2025-03-16Sun17:28:10, Rhys Sage via Swlug sent:
> I rebuilt the circuit on the breadboard again, having had no worthwhile readings from my oscilloscope. I'd been excited to see a faint wavy line on the scope. That excitement was dashed when I noticed the scope did exactly that line, on its own.

    That's why I was not at all hopeful about your 0.01v voltage variations.  This is clearly a very tricky circuit to get working.

    In your last breadboard circuit, I noticed a missing connection between the 1st transistor collector I think it was and the positive power rail.  Please can you update us with another photo so I can check the wiring for you?

    One of the potential problems that I identified was your huge loop areas on the breadboard.  Did you try my suggested mitigations?

    Did you try the idea of testing with a different photodiode and giving it test pulses of light from an LED?  Then keep shortening the pulses and see how far you get, and whether you can get it down close to tens of nanoseconds?

> I connected a speaker where it was supposed to feed to an Arduino and to the power line. I got a very quiet low frequency and consistent buzzing noise. That is welcome.

    Hmm.  Sounds like all the little loop antennae on your breadboard might be picking-up 50Hz hum EMI.  Can you try reducing loop areas as much as possible, including adding capacitors across the supply, as close as possible to where it is used, such as to truncate the effective loop areas there.  30k of gain is a very sensitive amount of amplification, so it's going to amplify all this EMI if you don't manage to get things to be a lot tighter.

    Why is a buzzing noise welcome if it is not what your circuit is designed to do?  I think somehow you need to try getting a bigger test signal in there with essentially a different photodiode rig driven by a test LED.  Then when you get an actual signal that you intended, rather than just noise, we can calculate a signal-to-noise ratio, and then get an idea of how far off is your circuit's performance from being able to detect a 20ns pulse.  This way, you would be able to monitor your progress and see whether or not each change helps or not.

> Now I'm wondering if I should be getting a continuous buzzing.

    Yeah, no.  You should be getting pulses, which might not sound like anything on the buzzer having drawn an envelope over them, but if they are audible, they should sound like clicks.  Because of this, I do not advise this as the best way to test that something is going on.

    I think what I would try next is to try testing with a voltmeter on the output, and to remove the resistor of the envelope detector subcircuit (the 10MΩ one) for now.  This will ensure that once you get something trigger the input, the voltage of your output will drop.    You should then be able to reset it back up by connecting your 1MΩ resistor across the capacitor.  Most likely, with your circuit being so sensitive to noise, the voltage will drop as soon as you remove that resistor each time, but at least it gives something to experiment with.

    Test this against a "control" photodiode that you dipped in thick black paint or something (and without the biasing resistor that I suggested -- this would be a later performance enhancement).  Try reducing loop areas and see whether you see an improvement in stability.  My understanding is that the page 78 circuit, but with the Geiger--Muller tube being replaced with a photodiode, and with the 10MΩ resistor removed, if the photodiode is painted black such that no current passes through it, the voltage on the capacitor /should/ remain constant.  The only other reason it would change is due to EMI (and a tiny bit of parasitic conductance, but I don't think it would be significant, because capacitors hold their charge for long enough to measure them, and in many cases much much longer -- months or years -- that's how flash memory storage works).

    So basically what I am suggesting is to temporarily alter the circuit such that the capacitor voltage should stay at whatever you set it to, and then see whether it does stay, or whether actually the EMI is way too much of an influence, which I strongly suspect.

> I'll play with it a bit more. I'm running it now off a 9v battery. The 10M resistor ended up as 1M as I don't have 10M.

    Of course, if you happen to have a paper-bound strip of 1MΩ resistors (or an assortment or whatever), 10 of them in series would be 10MΩ.

    But 10MΩ is quite unusually-high for low-voltage / small-signal stuff, so its mere presence in that page 78 circuit indicates to me that what you are dealing with here is probably not compatible with a breadboard, simply because of the loop area problem.  Did you try watching that video I mentioned by W2AEW about prototyping techniques that work better for radio frequencies?  Did you try any of my suggestions for reducing loop area on your breadboard to at least mitigate the problem, such as keeping the power rails adjacent, or adding capacitors across them to truncate their effective loop area?

> A noise is better than I've had so far. Better than that - a noise that wasn't accompanied by plumes of magic smoke.

    :-]  It's certainly exciting to have an occasional encounter with the magic blue/grey genie, but be sure to test that your components have not magically morphed into insulators or conductors during the genie's visit! ;-)


> I have a bit more fiddling to do with it then I had an ampule of Tritium to test it on, on the way. After that I'll code the Arduino driver.


    You be careful.  I seriously advise doing the tests that do not require dangerous substances first, like swapping the photodiode for one covered in black paint (a "control") and then for one controlled by an LED (effectively an "opto-isolator").  Then again, you can skip the black-painted one if you just were to make a optoïsolator sealed from outside light but then leave the LED disconnected for the control test, as the effect should be the same: no light to the photodiode; and therefore almost no current flowing; therefore very little amplified current; therefore very slow change in voltage of the capacitor.

    You might find that in these tests with the 10MΩ resistor removed, the small value of the capacitor still changes much too quickly.  You could try a bigger capacitor there just for the test.

    The general idea here is to keep stripping-back the function of the circuit until you find that it behaves as expected/intended, then start adding that functionality back into the circuit, step-by-step, and see where it goes wrong, or what level of sensitivity you get to before the noise starts to dominate.  When you find the edge of where it stops working, that is the ideal setting to experiment with, because each thing you try will do something different and give useful feedback as to what works and what doesn't.  If each thing you try results in an signal-to-noise ratio of zero, you are not learning much from those experiments.  It is more useful, both for motivation and for information-theoretic efficiency of learning, to have successes at least 50% of the time on average.  That's why I'm trying to break this big problem up into multiple smaller problems that are easier to actually achieve.

    One other idea -- have you set the trigger on your oscilloscope such that each pulse starts at the same place on the screen?  If you are not already doing that, then it should make it a lot easier to actually see the momentary pulses flashing up above the solid line a bit like 1940s cinema film dust noise -- very quick but you can see its presence thanks to your own persistence-of-vision.

Kind regards,
James.
-- 
Wealth doesn't bring happiness, but poverty brings sadness.
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