[Wylug-help] Networking Linux PCs

[Frank Shute]

On Thu, Nov 28, 2002 at 12:09:24PM +0000, John Hodrien wrote:
>
> On Wed, 27 Nov 2002, Frank Shute wrote:
>
> > This has always been the perceived wisdom but I often wonder how true
> > it is. I can't comment on Debian but having installed FreeBSD which I
> > was assured was terrifying and strictly for wizards, I found it to be
> > the easiest OS I had ever installed. It was really just a case of
> > being able to read the instructions with the partitioning being the
> > hardest bit (isn't it always when you dual boot?) although the
> > installer offers a sensible default.
>
> Ah but there's different groups of people.  I started with slackware, and
> coped but that certainly doesn't mean it was good.  Some people would start
> there and throw it in the bin and never bother looking again.

But Slack has always been considered a bit of a hackers system.

>
> > I believe the FreeBSD installer is a bit minimalist much like Debian
> > but doesn't minimalist mean there's less to foul up? :)
>
> The RedHat installer is hardly complex if you pick the newbie install, and I'd
> suspect less complex than the BSD installer.

The RedHat installer is more complicated than the FreeBSD installer &
because it's got whizzy graphics and the like, it doesn't really make
it any easier to use - newbie or otherwise.

> Installing from a firewire CDROM onto a laptop with new graphics and
> sound yet installing fine with no intervention is where I suspect
> debian + BSD would suffer.

Installing on my laptop which only had a PCMCIA CDROM was the same
procedure with RedHat and FreeBSD - copy the CDROM to my Windows
partition and go from there. Numerous (complicated) kernel recompiles
with RedHat to get sound, PCMCIA and USB working, none required with
default FreeBSD kernel although APM doesn't work so I require an
(easy) recompile. Hideous amount of hacked options in linux kernel to
get APM working on a Thinkpad.

OK, I don't know how much of that is RedHats fault and how much of
that I would have had with Debian for instance but I don't think
Debian would have been any worse.

> > It doesn't have things like linuxconf but all my hardware was detected
> > and I found it easy to configure/setup. I guess a newbie might not
> > find it easy to setup but I don't know if they'd find things like
> > linuxconf/yast much easier - certainly not in the long run IMO.
>
> But is your hardware that exotic?

Not the workstation but RH failed to configure the ATAPI CDROM correctly
and FreeBSD did. Linuxconf wouldn't have helped me with the problem
but using a more stable system in the first place did - I didn't have
the problem.

What I'm really getting at is that a more thoroughly tested system
than RH is easier but RH insist on putting out systems that contain a
kernel which is hacked and hasn't had widespread use. Ditto their
system tools. Ditto their hacked versions of Gnome and KDE....

Compare and contrast the development process of a RedHat system and
FreeBSD or Debian: A few people at RH hack around with kernel and the
system and it receives a not very widespread release as beta then it's
released. But FreeBSD is released as CURRENT (for the keen &
developers), then STABLE (some bugs) and finally RELEASE (rock solid)
and all along that process anybody can track whichever release they
want or even track more than one. Debian does something similar.

Then compare and contrast apt or ports to RPM and they're in a
different league. The administrative overhead is huge in comparison,
something anybody, let alone a newbie, could well do without. RPM
should be dumped - it's grossly antiquated, inadequate and generally
hellish.

>
> > Are there people on this list who have piled into Linux not knowing
> > any unix with a distro like Debian and if so how have they got on?
>
> Got on far better once I switched to RedHat then to Mandrake.
>
> > Doesn't Debian have a pretty good manual/handbook if I remember
> > rightly? I think there's also an O'Reilly book on Debian but I don't
> > know if it's pitched towards the newbie.
>
> I've only ever really sunk me teeth into HOWTOs.
>
> > I suppose newbies might be put off by Debian as stable (or release?
> > Can't remember) is always someway behind the latest kernel and
> > utilities.
>
> Until recently, somewhat was putting it mildly.

But it's stable and well tested which is preferable to something that
is not IMO. BTW, is Debian release on 2.4 now or still 2.2?

>
> > But the stability of the release is what matters IMHO, otherwise you can
> > spend hours figuring out all sorts of horrid problems, which you really
> > don't want - especially if you're a newbie.
>
> I'm a RedHat 8.0 user at the moment, and I haven't found any bugs that would
> seriously hamper a newbie.

Crikey, they've finally got around to fixing backspace in termcap!

--

 Frank

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