[dundee] Chip and Pin payments - Consumer Rights when there's an error...

Wed Jun 9 11:16:27 UTC 2010

The receipt is proof of purchase, it's as simple as that. When shops say "no
refund given without proof of purchase" they mean a receipt, so they can't
have it both ways.

Now, the failsafe for a till going tits up might be to back out the
transaction, but in that case it should print off a "credit note" telling
you it had done that. It didn't in this case so as far as you know, the
goods are yours and you have a receipt to prove it.

So let's see what happens if you leave. They could try to stop you claiming
theft, but the common law definition of theft is to "feloniously appropriate
the property of another", well in this case the property is yours, you have
a receipt to prove it, so there can be no theft. If they try to stop you by
force, then it's assault. Simple as that.

What happens if they call the police? Well if it were me, I'd let you go and
tell the store it's a civil matter not a criminal matter and they'd have to
sue you for the goods or cost if they found out you'd not paid.

Hope this helps.

Cheers,
Gary

> -----Original Message-----
> From: dundee-bounces at lists.lug.org.uk [mailto:dundee-
> bounces at lists.lug.org.uk] On Behalf Of Rick Moynihan
> Sent: 09 June 2010 12:00
> To: Tayside Linux User Group
> Subject: [dundee] Chip and Pin payments - Consumer Rights when there's
> an error...
> 
> Hi all...
> 
> Not Linux related, but I know there're people on the list who know
> more than me about the design and legalities of chip and pin
> payments...  It's also quite an interesting situation... here's the
> story of what happened:
> 
> I went into Tesco (riverside) on Monday night and purchased groceries
> for the week.  Going over to the checkout, the girl scanned everything
> as usual and it totalled up to £21.67....  Here's what happened:
> 
> 1) I entered my Visa Debit card into the chip and pin device, and the
> correct pin as normal.
> 
> 2) The device printed "PIN ACCEPTED" on the screen.
> 
> 3) The device printed something along the lines of "TRANSACTION
> COMPLETE - PLEASE REMOVE YOUR CARD"
> 
> 4) I removed my card.
> 
> 5) The checkout started to print the remainder of the receipt.
> 
> 6) The checkout crashed and started furiously beeping (for the next 20
> minutes).
> 
> Now my position, is that this isn't really my concern.  The chip and
> pin device authorised my transaction and indicated that the
> transaction was complete...  So I begin picking up my shopping bags to
> leave.  The checkout girl concerned that the transaction hasn't worked
> properly asks me to hold on...  I oblige out of curtousy, but tell her
> that as far as I'm concerned it was successful.
> 
> I immediately take a look at the receipt (which was still in the
> machine), and see that its printed all the items, the total and all
> the gubins associated with a visa debit transaction, including "PIN
> AUTHORISED" etc... Again, as far as I'm concerned - I've paid and the
> shopping is now my personal property.  I point this out to her, and
> ask if I can leave...  She again asks me to wait for the manager to
> look, citing how the receipt hadn't been cut off by the machine and
> that it hadn't printed the barcode or club card point advert...  again
> something that doesn't concern me...  regardless I wait for the
> manager.
> 
> 5 minutes later the manager comes over and checks for the transaction
> on their computer system (the till was still locked up)...  There's no
> sign of the amount.  Again I say that the receipt constitutes proof of
> purchase...  He tells me, it would have shown up on the computer
> system, and says they'll have to run the items through again on
> another till.
> 
> Finally after a few minutes of arguing, I give up agreeing to their
> demands, but make sure they write everything down and agree to refund
> me if I my mini statement shows the duplicate payment the next day.
> They charge me again and I finally walk away with my goods.
> 
> Yesterday I checked with my bank, and unfortunately it was too early
> for the mini statement to show... However they could check the list of
> pending authorisations and the transactions were listed three times
> like so:
> 
> 21:17:40  £21.67 APPROVED
> 21:35:30  £21.65 DENIED.PIN BYPASS
> 21:37:47  £21.65 APPROVED
> 
> (The two pence price discrepancy was due to weighed goods on the
> different tills... I made a point at the time).  The bank teller
> didn't know what "DENIED.PIN BYPASS" meant (I got my PIN right first
> time) so its a little puzzling... but regardless it looks like I have
> indeed been charged twice.  I'll find out for sure later on today,
> when I get my statement.
> 
> Now I'm confident Tesco will refund the error, but I'm wondering if in
> situations like this I am within my legal rights to walk off with my
> shopping.  Some questions:
> 
> 1) Does anyone know when an EPOS transaction is legally considered to
> have been made?  Is it the card unit displaying "PIN ACCEPTED - PLEASE
> REMOVE CARD", or is it after the receipt is printed?
> 
> 2) Is a receipt is legally considered proof of purchase.  (I'm almost
> 100% sure it is - but can anyone point me to the act/legislation
> covers this?)  i.e. if I'm in posession of a receipt, can I just leave
> the store with my goods?
> 
> 3) Is there any legislation covering what constitutes a receipt...  As
> I said, the receipt didn't print the club card advert, the barcode, or
> more crucially the last line which was the time and date.  But are any
> of these legally required?!
> 
> The reason I ask all these questions, is because a concern is bank
> charges...  My concern in this situation was that the account in
> question is perilously close to my overdraft limit, and that the
> transaction going through twice might push me over into bank charges
> when that and other direct debits come out.  Tesco's obviously refused
> to accept liability for any charges, and I'm pretty confident that I
> have enough of a margin (this time) to avoid them; but this might not
> have been the case.
> 
> Because of this, I think I have a good legal grounds to actual just
> walk out with my goods...  After all they can't force me to enter my
> PIN pay again.  Obviously it would seem reasonable to provide Tesco
> with my contact details should they want to clarify things at a future
> date, but am I right in thinking this???
> 
> I should point out that the Tesco staff were helpful, and given the 1
> in a million chance of a till crashing at that exact point I can
> appreciate their cluelessness on what to do, and the desire to cover
> their asses.  However my technical understanding of chip and pin is
> that the card reader securely talks to the banking system, meaning
> that Tesco's log (which didn't show the transaction) is not party to
> the communications between the reader and the banking system.
> 
> Assuming I have been charged twice (it very much looks like it), as a
> software engineer I also find it interesting that the system was
> designed to errr on the side of the store rather than the consumer in
> the case of error.
> 
> R.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> dundee GNU/Linux Users Group mailing list
> dundee at lists.lug.org.uk  http://dundeelug.org.uk
> https://mailman.lug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/dundee
> Chat on IRC, #tlug on irc.lug.org.uk
> 
> !DSPAM:5,4c0f7426153671750512326!