[dundee] Chip and Pin payments - Consumer Rights when there's an error...

[Rick Moynihan]

On 9 June 2010 12:16, Gary Short <gary at garyshort.org> wrote:
> The receipt is proof of purchase, it's as simple as that. When shops say "no
> refund given without proof of purchase" they mean a receipt, so they can't
> have it both ways.

Thats what I thought... but is there what legislation describes the
legal nature of a receipt and its constitution?

> Now, the failsafe for a till going tits up might be to back out the
> transaction, but in that case it should print off a "credit note" telling
> you it had done that. It didn't in this case so as far as you know, the
> goods are yours and you have a receipt to prove it.

Thats true... It didn't occur to me at the time, but I've always
previously had printed confirmation that a transaction was voided.

> So let's see what happens if you leave. They could try to stop you claiming
> theft, but the common law definition of theft is to "feloniously appropriate
> the property of another", well in this case the property is yours, you have
> a receipt to prove it, so there can be no theft. If they try to stop you by
> force, then it's assault. Simple as that.

Yup, my logic entirely!

> What happens if they call the police? Well if it were me, I'd let you go and
> tell the store it's a civil matter not a criminal matter and they'd have to
> sue you for the goods or cost if they found out you'd not paid.
>
> Hope this helps.

Thats what I thought... maybe next time I'll have 'the pleasure' of
taking it this far... though hopefully not.

Cheers for the response.

R.

>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: dundee-bounces at lists.lug.org.uk [mailto:dundee-
>> bounces at lists.lug.org.uk] On Behalf Of Rick Moynihan
>> Sent: 09 June 2010 12:00
>> To: Tayside Linux User Group
>> Subject: [dundee] Chip and Pin payments - Consumer Rights when there's
>> an error...
>>
>> Hi all...
>>
>> Not Linux related, but I know there're people on the list who know
>> more than me about the design and legalities of chip and pin
>> payments...  It's also quite an interesting situation... here's the
>> story of what happened:
>>
>> I went into Tesco (riverside) on Monday night and purchased groceries
>> for the week.  Going over to the checkout, the girl scanned everything
>> as usual and it totalled up to £21.67....  Here's what happened:
>>
>> 1) I entered my Visa Debit card into the chip and pin device, and the
>> correct pin as normal.
>>
>> 2) The device printed "PIN ACCEPTED" on the screen.
>>
>> 3) The device printed something along the lines of "TRANSACTION
>> COMPLETE - PLEASE REMOVE YOUR CARD"
>>
>> 4) I removed my card.
>>
>> 5) The checkout started to print the remainder of the receipt.
>>
>> 6) The checkout crashed and started furiously beeping (for the next 20
>> minutes).
>>
>> Now my position, is that this isn't really my concern.  The chip and
>> pin device authorised my transaction and indicated that the
>> transaction was complete...  So I begin picking up my shopping bags to
>> leave.  The checkout girl concerned that the transaction hasn't worked
>> properly asks me to hold on...  I oblige out of curtousy, but tell her
>> that as far as I'm concerned it was successful.
>>
>> I immediately take a look at the receipt (which was still in the
>> machine), and see that its printed all the items, the total and all
>> the gubins associated with a visa debit transaction, including "PIN
>> AUTHORISED" etc... Again, as far as I'm concerned - I've paid and the
>> shopping is now my personal property.  I point this out to her, and
>> ask if I can leave...  She again asks me to wait for the manager to
>> look, citing how the receipt hadn't been cut off by the machine and
>> that it hadn't printed the barcode or club card point advert...  again
>> something that doesn't concern me...  regardless I wait for the
>> manager.
>>
>> 5 minutes later the manager comes over and checks for the transaction
>> on their computer system (the till was still locked up)...  There's no
>> sign of the amount.  Again I say that the receipt constitutes proof of
>> purchase...  He tells me, it would have shown up on the computer
>> system, and says they'll have to run the items through again on
>> another till.
>>
>> Finally after a few minutes of arguing, I give up agreeing to their
>> demands, but make sure they write everything down and agree to refund
>> me if I my mini statement shows the duplicate payment the next day.
>> They charge me again and I finally walk away with my goods.
>>
>> Yesterday I checked with my bank, and unfortunately it was too early
>> for the mini statement to show... However they could check the list of
>> pending authorisations and the transactions were listed three times
>> like so:
>>
>> 21:17:40  £21.67 APPROVED
>> 21:35:30  £21.65 DENIED.PIN BYPASS
>> 21:37:47  £21.65 APPROVED
>>
>> (The two pence price discrepancy was due to weighed goods on the
>> different tills... I made a point at the time).  The bank teller
>> didn't know what "DENIED.PIN BYPASS" meant (I got my PIN right first
>> time) so its a little puzzling... but regardless it looks like I have
>> indeed been charged twice.  I'll find out for sure later on today,
>> when I get my statement.
>>
>> Now I'm confident Tesco will refund the error, but I'm wondering if in
>> situations like this I am within my legal rights to walk off with my
>> shopping.  Some questions:
>>
>> 1) Does anyone know when an EPOS transaction is legally considered to
>> have been made?  Is it the card unit displaying "PIN ACCEPTED - PLEASE
>> REMOVE CARD", or is it after the receipt is printed?
>>
>> 2) Is a receipt is legally considered proof of purchase.  (I'm almost
>> 100% sure it is - but can anyone point me to the act/legislation
>> covers this?)  i.e. if I'm in posession of a receipt, can I just leave
>> the store with my goods?
>>
>> 3) Is there any legislation covering what constitutes a receipt...  As
>> I said, the receipt didn't print the club card advert, the barcode, or
>> more crucially the last line which was the time and date.  But are any
>> of these legally required?!
>>
>> The reason I ask all these questions, is because a concern is bank
>> charges...  My concern in this situation was that the account in
>> question is perilously close to my overdraft limit, and that the
>> transaction going through twice might push me over into bank charges
>> when that and other direct debits come out.  Tesco's obviously refused
>> to accept liability for any charges, and I'm pretty confident that I
>> have enough of a margin (this time) to avoid them; but this might not
>> have been the case.
>>
>> Because of this, I think I have a good legal grounds to actual just
>> walk out with my goods...  After all they can't force me to enter my
>> PIN pay again.  Obviously it would seem reasonable to provide Tesco
>> with my contact details should they want to clarify things at a future
>> date, but am I right in thinking this???
>>
>> I should point out that the Tesco staff were helpful, and given the 1
>> in a million chance of a till crashing at that exact point I can
>> appreciate their cluelessness on what to do, and the desire to cover
>> their asses.  However my technical understanding of chip and pin is
>> that the card reader securely talks to the banking system, meaning
>> that Tesco's log (which didn't show the transaction) is not party to
>> the communications between the reader and the banking system.
>>
>> Assuming I have been charged twice (it very much looks like it), as a
>> software engineer I also find it interesting that the system was
>> designed to errr on the side of the store rather than the consumer in
>> the case of error.
>>
>> R.
>>
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