[Glastonbury] an idea develops?
glastonbury@mailman.lug.org.uk
glastonbury at mailman.lug.org.uk
Fri Aug 1 15:03:00 2003
I really wanted to reply to this email as I was quite shocked by Martin's
apparently dismissive response to Mike's proposal.
Quoting Martin WHEELER <mwheeler@startext.co.uk>:
> [ This was originally a private reply to Mike, but since the text has
> now been put out to the list, the reply might just as well go
> direct to there too. ]
>
> Mike __
>
> Actually, when nothing further transpired after our animated
> conversation, I assumed you'd let the idea drop. I nevertheless carried
> on developing my own thoughts on what we'd talked about, and may even
> make them public at some time in the future.
>
> The core idea of your vision: "London has work but no workers;
> Glastonbury has workers but no work; let's find a way of putting one in
> touch with the other" obviously has a certain validity.
I will be honest and say that I have known and worked with Mike on several web-
based projects over the last couple of years, and he did manage to get me
connected to London, through LSH - and found me work with a major London based
organization (the Salvation Army) based in the heart of the City. This gave me
insight and experience of how a major business works, gave me some quality work
for my portfolio, and also some wages which haven't been matched down here! As
many new media businesses (film, tech, etc) are based there, then I would say
that its certainly an idea worth further investigation.
(And
> attractiveness to the mandarins in local government who are not only
> charged with advancing the common weal, but also have the key to the
> public coffers; which is presumably what your paper is aiming for.)
Great. Bodies like the RDA are trying to develop the area (what's happening at
Morlands in the future?) and have the funds to support schemes which will help
local people. If the varied skillsets are there, based around LINUX, and a
constructive plan,then why not try to get something established. There was also
mention of LINUX education rather than purely business.
>
> [Aside: a small group of us in this town have already been working on a
> specific aspect of this for a couple of months now -- nothing to do with
> the IT services sector, but the pre-press (translation, copy-editing,
> indexing, proof-reading, type-setting) sector, which has traditionally
> been handled this way by the London agencies servicing the publishing
> houses. Because in this area, the town *does* have significant spare
> professional-level capacity. And the concept of outsourcing the work
> from London already exists.]
Lets build on this - as said there are a variety of skillsets amongst LINUX
users, and years of experience too. And there are people wanting to learn &
develop skills within a LINUX context seeing it as a future technology.
>
> But from the Linux-specific point of view, I can't help feeling you've
> got a rather simplistic and naive view of things.
>
> To start, 'Linux' isn't something brash and new and the latest fad --
> "let's jump on board and make a killing, quick" -- but a long slow
> 10-year development in the IT sector which has only recently percolated
> through to the consciousness of the general public. (Don't forget for
> example that I personally have been offering Linux services in
> Glastonbury for seven years already. What I do is not new -- but only
> now is the general public, education and local government becoming aware
> of it.) I feel there's a bit of the "Hey folks, I've just discovered
> Linux and I'm all excited about it; let's turn it into money" attitude
> of the recent initiate in your paper, which needs handling with caution.
I'm relatively new to LINUX myself, and respect all the experience that others
have had. But it seems that if it is percolating through, then businesses are
wanting to use and develop LINUX and will be looking for the people to offer
support services, teaching, and software skills. Sure, the interest of
multinationals could be 'dodgy' but it is also on a more grassroots level and
is a sign I think of Linux consciousness expanding amongst users (100th monkey
effect) so why not surf.
Personally, Mike is a great salesman and has a knowledge of business ways
and 'diplomacy'.Which is an ability I know I lack so have been grateful at
times to have that support there.
>
> To begin with, Glastonbury definitely does NOT have any spare IT
> consultancy capacity in the Linux field at the professional level that
> the likes of IBM, Dell and Hewlett-Packard (all of whom are currently
> spending enormous amounts of energy and money on Linux-based projects
> and developments) are going to fall over themselves to hire.
> Or even any competent London-based pimping agency, for that matter.
> The competent consultants in town are *already* employed elsewhere.
> The others are just wannabes.
I want to be ... what about LINUX used in graphics, media, music and education -
it isn't just about systems, though this is the heart (kernel) of it. And
LUGOG can be a forum for developing latent skills - wannabes cannabe...
>
> Secondly, LUGoG represents a bunch of amateurs, volunteers and neophytes
> -- NOT as you would like to persuade the big-money-spenders, a
> tightly-focussed group of professional IT consultants. And the learning
> curve in training people up may be steeper than you think. Moreover,
> it's not only in knowing how to use 'Linux' -- it's also in knowing how
> to sell consultancy services in a professional market-place.
As said, Mikes a good salesman, others of you are Professionals in other
fields.Business seems to be a lot about projecting an image of confidence &
knowledge.
>
> Thirdly, Linux training services *already* exist in Glastonbury -- I've
> been delivering training from here ever since I arrived seven years ago;
> and recently, I've begun persuading people to come to the town to
> receive their training, rather than have me go to London to deliver.
> [Aside on the ICT Centre -- *two* of us in town have tried to hire that
> place over the last eighteen months for IT training delivered by
> ourselves -- and got precisely nowhere. And as for delivering >>Linux<<
> (i.e., non-Windows) training there -- you might just as well apply for
> permission to run a Black Mass in the building.]
Sitting in the ICT at the moment - pretty quiet here - i guess its how people
are approached and talked to... Lots of potential here. Of course, most of the
system is Windows, so if there is an attitude of conflict and derision to it,
then that will rub people up the wrong way. But there's a steady stream of
people coming in for email and stuff. Its getting to the point where everyone
needs a basic knowledge of computer use, and as you regularly condemn Microsoft
usege, then education thru LINUX would be beneficial.
>
> Which brings me to another point: I'm afraid that despite the
> over-liberal sprinkling of marketese and related terminology in
> your paper ("diarise" ? [No thank you, I've got a packet of Immodium
> somewhere]) in your paper, the term "Glastonbury Collective" does not
> immediately inspire thoughts of professionalism and excellence.
> A bunch of pot-head programmers living under plastic sheets maybe; but
> serious professionals? Sadly: NO.
Stereotypical bullshit...(excuse my language)...give people a chance
> (This is all part of the image problem Glastonbury as a whole suffers
> from -- listen to someone who has recently taken to saying he comes from
> 'the South-West' rather than 'Glastonbury'. I'm well aware that it's
> good policy for making County Hall/regional development unlock their
> coffers; but for the punters it's a definite turnoff; and no more than
> a source of silly jokes about mud, drugs, etc.)
We're in it together - don't be a stick in the mud! I've been here 7 years too,
and the place does seem run down. So projects which can offer ways of personal
and 'collective' development should be considered. A few people here may have
rejected Capitalism (not my favorite word either) and good for them. But any
way to grow and promote a constructive image of the town through group effort
(collectively) and individually seems a good idea. Its better than condemning
it all and trying to resolve issues by more CCTV and surveillance (I wonder
what OS is used for these?). You would be surprised what latent or unexpressed
skills are in people.
Anyway, it seems that Glastonbury would be a base / iconic name, but the
potential for this project could encompass at least a 20 mile radius of
personal involvement from people.
>
> The precise details of how many meetings, when, and where, I won't even
> go into -- obviously if the basic material isn't there to begin with, such
> details are irrelevant.
> However, I would say that, from a personal point of view, any such
> development which was allowed to be controlled from London would
> *inevitably* find that all the profits (and financial control) would
> eventually 'drift' to London too -- leaving us all no better off than
> when we started. So I would oppose any development not firmly
> controlled from Glastonbury from the start, I'm afraid.
>
> And as a final thought -- I don't think you're being realistic in
> imagining London fees for out-of-London services. The competition is
> *not* the Porsche-driving, fast-living, cocaine-snorting London
> consultant beloved by the media; but the well-educated highly competent
> Indian sub-continent employee working for ONE-FIFTH of what you would
> accept as a salary to do the same work.
> Sorry; but this is the real world of supply and demand of IT services.
There are truths here certainly, but like I said, I felt that the experience of
working in London invaluable. There was some resistance to being remotely based
but the work still got done. I recently saw a program about a guy who had move
his business (THE LINUX CENTRE) from London to ORKNEY!!!Don't know if u are
aware of him. Sure his business developed in London initially, and he still
commuted to London during the week at times to meet clients, but - ORKNEY!? He
was doing ok. London is 3 hours away by car (3 days by horse drawn cart).Anyway
if there was a regular presence based in London acting as liason between the
team here and clients then this problem would be significantly covered.
I received London wages, which allowed me to buy a bigger tent and more drugs
for a while... (joke)
As for clients coming to here - good premises, equipment, a professional
atmosphere - (good food Mike!) - that would give a good impression - plus they
could do Tai Chi or woodcarving in the evening and learn to relax!
>
> I have other comments to make; but I've probably upset you enough
> already. On the positive side, you threw in an aside somewhere in there
> which I think might point towards a real possibility -- the Windows
> market is so huge and nebulous (and forgiving), that a "Glastonbury
> Collective" of anarchists (your term, not mine!) might just be able to
> peddle its wares profitably in the way that you suggest.
>
> But Linux services? Only with very, *very* careful forethought,
> in-depth knowledge of the Linux market, and extremely careful planning.
> Carried out by professionals.
This isn't meant as a personal attack Martin, but I felt that the idea could do
with more discussion and growth.Everything comes out of an idea or two. So i'm
interested how and whether other people too are interested in the project.
Regards
Duncan
>
> Cheers,
> --
> Martin Wheeler - StarTEXT / AVALONIX - Glastonbury - BA6 9PH - England
> mwheeler@startext.co.uk http://www.startext.co.uk/mwheeler/
> GPG pub key : 01269BEB 6CAD BFFB DB11 653E B1B7 C62B AC93 0ED8 0126 9BEB
> - Share your knowledge. It's a way of achieving immortality. -
>
>
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