[Glastonbury] Re Lugog issues

[info at wccl.co.uk]

Re whatever comments below - please don't close down LUGOG! I hope meetings 
can be reinstated in due course somewhere. I will think about if I know 
anywhere suitable. Has anyone asked the Blue School? Unfortunately I don't 
have any contacts in their IT sector. Or perhaps Millfield? If they are using 
Linux, they might like the "exposure" of their fine premises etc to local 
businesses etc. Perhaps a private school is an answer so long as they don't 
charge.

I don't know what all these issues are about in depth, only what I read in the 
mails. I do hope all will be sorted out happily for everyone involved. I am 
grateful to everyone who has given advice to this non-tecchie when I have had 
problems and look forward to LUGOG continuing. 

Ros



On Monday 12 December 2005 07:05, glastonbury-request at mailman.lug.org.uk 
wrote:
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> Today's Topics:
>
>    1. Re: tomorrow's -- now today's -- meeting (Greg Browne)
>    2. Re: tomorrow's -- now today's -- meeting (Ian Dickinson)
>    3. Re: tomorrow's -- now today's -- meeting (Andrew M.A. Cater)
>    4. Re: tomorrow's -- now today's -- meeting (Ian Dickinson)
>    5. Re: tomorrow's -- now today's -- meeting (Tony Sumner)
>    6. meeting next Wednesday (Martin Wheeler)
>    7. Re: meeting next Wednesday (Sean Miller)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 14:21:18 +0000
> From: Greg Browne <greg.browne at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Glastonbury] tomorrow's -- now today's -- meeting
> To: "The Linux User Group of Glastonbury (LUGOG)"
> 	<glastonbury at mailman.lug.org.uk>
> Message-ID:
> 	<e271a2210512110621i5aaac1cbv520842ede5d12ebf at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Like Cherry, I just want to add my thanks to you Steve for all your hard
> work and to others for all their invaluable tips and advice, especially
> Martin. I've not been a frequent visitor but all in the group have helped
> me a lot. All the best with your future, Steve.
> Greg
> PS. Intend to get to Mepis land in February. Will report back if I succeed.
> PPS www.computux.com is an ideal presentation of the future of computing,
> IMO. The need is in support, not in locked in software.
>
> --
> Greg Browne
> www.rotherleigh.co.uk
> Tel: 0845 458 8172, 020 7871 8495
> Fax: 07967 627835
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 15:06:27 +0000
> From: Ian Dickinson <i.j.dickinson at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Glastonbury] tomorrow's -- now today's -- meeting
> To: "The Linux User Group of Glastonbury (LUGOG)"
> 	<glastonbury at mailman.lug.org.uk>
> Message-ID:
> 	<f77f69680512110706g39c6acb3r6e41aab69df15582 at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> I also wish to thank Steve for his hard work on behalf of the group. I
> am surprised, however, that there hasn't been more comment about
> Martin's outburst. This is a public list, and the archives can be read
> by anyone, including the staff at St Dunstans about whom Martin was so
> unnecessarily offensive. Might our silence (with one or two
> exceptions) be taken as tacit approval? I for one don't accept that
> rudeness has any useful role in effective dialogue. Martin's comments
> are not representative of any forum that I wish to be associated with.
> If that means that I no longer participate in lugog then I don't have
> a problem with that.
>
> Ian
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 16:27:12 +0000
> From: amacater at galactic.demon.co.uk (Andrew M.A. Cater)
> Subject: Re: [Glastonbury] tomorrow's -- now today's -- meeting
> To: glastonbury at mailman.lug.org.uk
> Message-ID: <20051211162712.GA9396 at galactic.demon.co.uk>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> On Sun, Dec 11, 2005 at 02:21:18PM +0000, Greg Browne wrote:
> > Like Cherry, I just want to add my thanks to you Steve for all your hard
> > work and to others for all their invaluable tips and advice, especially
> > Martin. I've not been a frequent visitor but all in the group have helped
> > me a lot. All the best with your future, Steve.
>
> This situation is getting beyond a joke: various "stuff" has been
> said on LUGoG mailing lists, tempers have run high and so on - but
> please don't assume that it's necessarily the end of LUGOG, that
> people are forced to take sides and so on. I've been staying out
> of this one as a relative outsider - though one who has been involved
> one way or another with LUGOG since its inception - but I'd like to
> add a little here, if I may.
>
> Steve,
>
> Thanks for your good work. It's not easy being a teacher - for you, it
> can't be any easier to go back into school after work and work hard to
> keep a group of enthusiasts together, provide them with facilities and
> still feel pressured/undervalued/put upon. Don't walk away from the LUGoG
> altogether: you are valued, as is everyone else.
>
> Martin,
>
> Try hard not to annoy people accidentally/negligently/gratuitously.
> Too many people can't cope with it: think for a moment before annoying
> people deliberately.
>
> [Though it pains me to say it, given my own character: it really _is_ true
> that not everything can be black and white nor can one man alone rid the
> world of fools and others, no matter how well intentioned he may seek to be
> :) ]
>
> Everyone else
>
> I don't know/care precisely what/what was not said at the school. Nor does
> anyone else : CLUE TO EVERYONE ELSE THAT ISN'T STEVE OR MARTIN - it really
> doesn't/shouldn't matter in the medium to long term.
>
> Martin expressing himself in forthright terms is Martin, pure and simple.
> I've known and respected him for many years and, right or wrong, he is
> consistent in his approach and lives with it - for good or ill, Martin's
> post is entirely consistent with Martin in real life. Ian's point about
> worrying about the tone of Martin's postings to the list is probably
> overkill - anyone who has hung around the 'Net for more than six months is
> probably used to flamewars and such.
>
> No-one has to associate themselves with every post on this list
> (nor should they) but a continuing association with a successful LUGOG
> should mean rather more in six months from now than an obscure post (on a
> relatively obscure list).
>
> What does need sorting out - as it seems to me and all IMHO:
> ============================================================
>
> 1. The LUGoG may need a committee or hierarchy of some kind - if only so
> that the outside world knows who to contact / who can speak
> authoritatively for the group if there are problems and so that Steve
> can have some backup / deputy.
>
> 2. The LUGoG should consider how best to pay for the facilities they use -
> be it in providing Linux training / networking courses / desk top
> publishing courses to St. Dunstan's students (or whatever) or assisting
> the centre (bespoke software / fixing computers that break ...)
> or in giving back to the wider community in some other way [install days
> , copies of Firefox/OpenOffice, security/networking/anti-virus help??]
>
> 3. Location, location, location. T1 is, fairly obviously, an ideal
> location if it can be secured. If it can't / outside school terms
> is there anywhere else within 15-20 miles - any corporates who might help
> / any Govt. department??
> [I remember doing disability access surveys for fire stations here in
> Gloucestershire: one of the remits for this IIRC was because the Home
> Office had suggested that the Fire Brigade ensure good use of training
> rooms and so forth outside 9-5, perhaps by letting the local communities
> use them.] Pubs are a no no if only because you may have young people
> around.
>
> 4. If you do have young people around / "vulnerable" adults, is the group
> effectively "clean" [given the need for CRB clearances and the
> legal liabliity culture when working with young people] and are
> appropriate safeguards in place? The same goes for liability insurances
> and other safeguards for group members attending meetings (possibly) -
> if you fall over a desk / get electrocuted by opening a laptop outside
> school hours, how far is the group liable?
>
> 5. Timing of meetings and events planning. You will never get a meeting
> night that will suit everyone - but you do need a regular meeting on a
> known day insofar as this is possible.
>
> This is all growing pains: I've seen similar from radio clubs in the
> past. Key people need to feel they have support and a succession plan
> from the wider membership - the membership in the widest sense need
> to "own" the LuGOG and see its success as theirs. We all need to push
> Linux like mad and help poeple to get to grips with it - potentially
> there may be more demand for support as Windows requires more and
> more and people can't afford to upgrade hardware and software / don't
> trust big corporations after the Sony rootkit.
>
> > Greg
> > PS. Intend to get to Mepis land in February. Will report back if I
> > succeed.
>
> A permanent move / visit to WV??
>
> > PPS www.computux.com is an ideal presentation of the future of computing,
> > IMO. The need is in support, not in locked in software.
>
> Thanks for the hint :)
>
> Andy
>
> > --
> > Greg Browne
> > www.rotherleigh.co.uk
> > Tel: 0845 458 8172, 020 7871 8495
> > Fax: 07967 627835
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 17:49:00 +0000
> From: Ian Dickinson <i.j.dickinson at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Glastonbury] tomorrow's -- now today's -- meeting
> To: "The Linux User Group of Glastonbury (LUGOG)"
> 	<glastonbury at mailman.lug.org.uk>
> Message-ID:
> 	<f77f69680512110949w35472e70h73e6a236a368260f at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> Hi Andy,
>
> > please don't assume that it's necessarily the end of LUGOG,
>
> For the record, I never assumed nor claimed that.
>
> > I don't know/care precisely what/what was not said at the school. Nor
> > does anyone else : CLUE TO EVERYONE ELSE THAT ISN'T STEVE OR MARTIN - it
> > really doesn't/shouldn't matter in the medium to long term.
>
> My response was not to what was or wasn't said by Martin to the school
> - as you say, we don't know. I was referring to what Martin said on
> this list [1].
>
> > Martin expressing himself in forthright terms is Martin, pure and simple.
>
> I think there's a widely held misconception that being forthright is
> synonymous with being rude. As it happens, there's some interesting
> discussion going on around this topic elsewhere at the moment in the
> blogging community [2]. I believe that it's entirely possible to
> disagree, forthrightly and honestly, without resorting to boorishness.
>
> > anyone who has hung around the 'Net for more than six months is probably
> > used to flamewars and such.
>
> Yep. I've been online since around '85, and I've seen loads of
> flamewars come and go. I'm still waiting to see one that actually
> contributed positively to a debate though.
>
> > What does need sorting out - as it seems to me and all IMHO:
> > [...]
>
> All good suggestions.
>
> Regards,
> Ian
>
>
> [1]
> http://mailman.lug.org.uk/pipermail/glastonbury/2005-December/002175.html
> [2]
> http://headrush.typepad.com/creating_passionate_users/2005/12/are_nice_and_
>ho.html
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 18:36:09 +0000
> From: Tony Sumner <tony at whittycat.me.uk>
> Subject: Re: [Glastonbury] tomorrow's -- now today's -- meeting
> To: "The Linux User Group of Glastonbury (LUGOG)"
> 	<glastonbury at mailman.lug.org.uk>
> Message-ID: <20051211183609.GA10109 at whittycat>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> On Dec 11, 2005, Andrew M.A. Cater was like:
> > anyone who has hung around the 'Net for more than six months is probably
> > used to flamewars and such.
>
> Oh, yes :-)
>
> > 2. The LUGoG should consider how best to pay for the facilities they use
> > -
>
> One of the groups I wrote about pays for the use of a room to meet in
> and they bring their own projector and screen. Anyone who likes can bring
> a laptop but there is no BB.
>
> >  Pubs are a no no if only because you may have young people around.
>
> Granted. I mentioned the Silicon Corridor Group only  because it is an
> example of a group that meets in a pub and has continued in existence
> for 10 years. But there are no young persons in it. The DCGLUG meets
> sometimes in the Paignton Rugby club and there is a bar and they do
> have young persons. Seems to work out ok.
>
> Of course T1 sounds ideal if the administration problems can be sorted.
>
> > 5. Timing of meetings and events planning.
>
> Talking of meetings, will there be a meeting on Wednesday 14 Dec? The
> web site says there is and has said so throughout this discussion.
>
> Tony Sumner
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 22:23:59 +0000 (GMT)
> From: Martin Wheeler <mwheeler at startext.co.uk>
> Subject: [Glastonbury] meeting next Wednesday
> To: "The Linux User Group of Glastonbury (LUGOG)"
> 	<glastonbury at mailman.lug.org.uk>
> Message-ID:
> 	<Pine.LNX.4.61.0512112143440.21858 at chaucer.startext.demon.co.uk>
> Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed
>
> On Sun, 11 Dec 2005, Tony Sumner wrote:
> > Talking of meetings, will there be a meeting on Wednesday 14 Dec? The
> > web site says there is and has said so throughout this discussion.
>
> I'm assuming so.  No-one's said anything to the contrary; and we certainly
> need one, if only to discuss practical modalities for the future.
> (I would take the accompanying published programme of events with a great
> dollop of salt, though.)
>
> Greg:
> Sorry I missed you last Wednesday -- we must have passed each other in
> the car park.  I'd been there since ten to seven, and the weather was
> foul, and I just didn't think anyone was going to make the effort, so I
> left at five past.
>
> Steve:
> I'm sorry you feel you can't take the heat.  (But it's probably worth
> bearing in mind that anyone who takes a snipe at me inevitably gets a
> snipe back.  I'm not the shy retiring kind, and I have no fear of using
> strong, emotive language.)  I'm very grateful for all you've done for the
> group -- but I feel the time has come for a review before it all falls
> asunder.  (No reflexion on *you* -- it's the *system* which needs
> tinkering with.)
>
> Ian:
> See above.  It takes all sorts to make a world; no one style of expression
> will ever prevail.  You're free to associate with whomsoever you wish, and
> to find me as rude as you wish -- but don't let it be a reason for you
> quitting the group, though.  (It should be evident that that sort of
> action won't change my behaviour one whit.)
>
>
> Re meeting:
>
> Maybe members could reflect on some of the ideas suggested in the Linux
> User Group HOWTO (as Steve suggested two-and-a-half years ago).
>
> For what it's worth, I don't like the idea of meeting in a pub.  It
> automatically bars the under-18s from participating; and despite the
> rather silly macho beer-swilling thing commonly associated with Linux, if
> I wanted to start a drinking club, I'd do just that -- start a drinking
> club.
>
> I'm not really in favour of a highly structured organisation (blazer-badge
> politics inevitably creeps in -- "I'm not belonging to anything *HE*'s on
> the committee of -- in fact I'm not belonging to anything *I* can't
> control completely") -- but I *am* in favour of regularity of meeting
> times that we stick to.
>
> I'm also very much in favour of keeping costs down to an absolute minimum.
>
> And I'm also in favour of having a programme worked out six months in
> advance -- I feel the current lack-a-daisical attitude shown by all of us
> in not setting a programme is detrimental to the group.
>
> Presumably see you all on Wednesday.
>
> Cheers,

-- 



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