[Gllug] My response to Ivan's comments made at the recent GLLUG meeting.

[Colin Murphy]

At the last GLLUG meeting on Saturday 14th, Ivan took the opportunity to 
express his views and concerns with the group.  Some of those concerns 
were addressed directly to me.  This is my reply.  The bulk of the email 
is preamble, for those that were at the meeting, they may want to cut to 
the chase and scroll two thirds of the way down.

GLLUG has a very loose organisational structure - this is my fault.  I 
accepted the responsibility for maintaining the group when the original 
organiser stood down to work abroad.  This was so long ago that I can't 
even remember his name.  If anyone can remind me, please do so.  I took 
the role for no other reason than no one else seemed to want it.

I was a very new and inexperienced Linux user, so, to help me run the group 
I looked to those in the group who seemed most keen to offer support.

There have been many that have offered their assistance and understanding, 
helping with whatever needed to be done to keep the meetings running, 
those that seemed to have filled this role the longest include John 
Southern, Steve Cobrin, Richard Cohen and Ivan A.  The five of us form the 
nearest thing your group has to a committee.

At the start of my responsibility towards GLLUG I was left with the mailing 
list, a web page and an open offer of a venue to meet in, all of which was 
set up by the original organiser.  I'll take the opportunity to express my 
thanks and gratitude to Mark Lowes of Ftech who helps host the site and 
mailing list for free, not that this will have had much of an impact on 
their business, unlike my incompetence at times. 

Gratitude is also expressed to those who helped to provide venues, 
including all at GND, John Hearns for CFC and to Sean Tohill for allowing 
us to use Westminster University.

Thanks also to Simmon Trimmer who helped with the sponsorship with those 
meetings held at UCL.

Ivan took a position at GND, firming up, in my mind, our continued access 
to using their offices.  Ivan also took on the responsibility for finding 
people to talk at the meetings, a valuable asset to me because I neither 
knew enough people eligible to talk or what subjects would be of interest 
to the bulk of the group.  Ivan's role was an important one to me, 
attracting talkers of interest to the group, and so, maintaining the 
interests of the group.

For me, GND offered all of the facilities that GLLUG needed to offer at the 
time.  I have to admit to having a very narrow perception of what the 
group needs and relied on the other four members of the 'committee' that 
the other sub-groups in GLLUG were catered for.  We had desks and chairs 
and a roof, we even had access to monitors etc.

My needs for the group were for practical demonstrations and so, it was the 
group that shared my needs and interests in that I paid my attention to 
looking after.

Ivan left GND and the group realised that it would obviously be awkward for 
Ivan to continue to attend and help at meetings at there offices.  This 
coincided, if memory serves me right,with the summer, the rooms used to 
get unbearably hot with the buzz of activity.  A new venue was needed.

I did my best to try and find a similar venue which offered similar 
facilities which, roughly, are:

1).Being central - GLLUG has a large catchment area.  Having a central 
location seemed to be the fairest option for all, but especially 
convenient for me, living centrally.
To help ease my conscience over this I always valued the idea of having 
other venues further afield that meetings might even alternate between.  
This would have been the fairest option of all.  I have only ever been 
able to find central locations, but I have often requested that people 
look out for likely venues where they are.

2a). Catering for the needs of MY group ( I say 'MY' group because it is 
the way that I perceive the group to be.) - We need a room with theatre 
style seating for the formal lectures 

2b). Some space for a hands on, practical use, where people can use 
hardware, either to install a distribution on or to go through some 
problem with someone.  I've always felt very strongly that there were some 
members of the group that gained most benefit by having something 
practical while learning.  There was always one, me.  It's equally true 
that there are those users that can solve all of their problems by reading 
books and man pages, but if they have access to self-reliance they don't 
need us for help.

3).An area for people to chat in - hopefully out of earshot of the formal 
lecture.

All of the venues we have had have had these to varying degrees

GND had enough rooms for all three of these needs.  It also had desks and 
sensible chairs to use computer equipment with.  We had access to 
monitors, so users only had to bring their boxes if they wanted to set up 
a machine.  They also had a large display for the presentations and gave 
us free coffee and nibbles.  They were not central, but had good public 
transport.  They had excellent parking.  There was no fixed end time - 
within reason.

UCL had desks and chairs, but was only one room - though the corridor got 
pressed into service.  It could not offer us monitors, so people wanting 
to bring something practical had to bring their own display.  It did have 
a projection screen, but we had to rely on Simon and Richard to bring a 
digital projector.  It was central but had limited parking facilities.  It 
also had a fixed end time.

CFC had an excellent room for presentations, but we still had to rely on 
Simon and Richard for the projector.  We had a separate area in which we 
could chat and set up equipment.  John Hearns, who worked at CFC was an 
excellent contact, helping us with arranging convenient dates for the 
meetings.  He also went out of his way to allow us to use monitors kept on 
site.  The separate area was a bar, ideal for chatting, not so for setting 
up equipment - we had a few tables after struggling with them in the 
service lift and no sensible chairs.  It was central but almost always 
offered no parking.  John Hearns, since our last meeting there, has left 
CFC for more (or is it less) altitudinous climes.  There is a GLLUG member 
still working at CFC and I understand that we are still welcome back 
there.  I have had no contact with CFC since John left, I have always 
thought of the contact now at CFC as Ivan's contact.  Some latittude with 
the end time.

Westminster University has two lecture theatres with the use of on site 
presentation equipment.  We have a room with existing equipment with which 
we are free to play on,  There are sensible desks and chairs for people to 
sit at.  There are other areas for people to chat in and a Refectory which 
has vending machines, which might even get stocked at some point.  The 
venue is central, but there is no parking, except for the very committed, 
like Jossette from O'Reilly, who found no problem.  There is a fixed end 
time.  The booking of the venue was always unofficial, with priority being 
given to CFC use, which could happen at short notice, effecting the start 
or end times or even the cancellation of a meeting, not that this ever 
happened.

We have had lots of venues, again, I am grateful to all of those that 
helped to provide them.  Unfortunately, not one of them seems to have been 
perfect.

I have never relied on the continued use of a single venue.  Even from the 
GND days, I would look for other likely venues with which to share the 
burden of the meetings.  In the early days I had little success in finding 
venues available for free, but I have had more success recently with 
offers from companies like Learning Tree International and Sony (UK).

In the autumn of 2001, Sean Tohill contacted John Southern in his position 
as editor of Linux Magazine.  Sean was offereing the facilities he had to 
be used by a local Linux user group.  John  put him in touch with me.

I saw excellent opportunity in the venue to meet some of the needs we had 
been lacking from CFC - my bugbear, the lack of sensible tables and chairs 
for people to set equipment up on.

I arranged for an Installfest for the venue for December.  GLLUG has not 
had an official Installfest in a long while, if ever, partly to do with 
the lack of facilities from the other venues, certainly since GND.  Thanks 
to all those that helped, especially Sash and Formi who helped - 
volunteered at least - to hand out flyers at computer fairs around the 
area of the university, and thanks to those regulars that turned up to 
help on those days.  It was specifically advertised as an Installfest - we 
had no formal talks, and this meeting would have been of no interest to 
those that do attend for the formal presentations.

The meeting was a success and I could see that the venue had the facilities 
needed for the formal talks too, even better, it had its own digital 
projector, relieving Richard of the burden, not that he ever expressed any 
complaint about it.  Therefore, I was keen for the next meeting to take 
place here also.  I wanted everybody to see what we could get access to.  
I was concerned that John Hearns might feel snubbed at my desire to have 
meetings away from his venue and approached him directly, and he put my 
mind at rest.

This was the February meeting then, the  first meeting that Ivan attended 
at this venue.  Afterwards, Ivan  did say to me that he was concerned 
about the authenticity of Sean's offer for us to use the venue.  These 
concerns seemed to revolve around the patronage to groups like ours, and 
his belief that there were some kickbacks for the University or for Sean 
himself.  I am unclear of the exact details of Ivans's concerns, perhaps 
he will be good enough to post full details.

Sean's offer seemed genuine  enough to me.  The only thing he wanted was 
for the meeting to happen on a more regular basis.  This was so he had 
some chance to also invite students and tutors from the University.

GLLUG meetings have traditionally been arranged in a very ad hoc fashion.  
We would only be able to confirm the date of a meeting once Ivan had 
confirmed the availability of his speakers and of the venue.  Sometimes 
this left very little time for the announcements of the meeting to be 
made.  This was often a point of concern and complaint, pointed in my 
direction.

When the proposition was put to Ivan that we make the the meetings more 
regular he said he would no longer be prepared to offer his services to 
arrange talks as he didn't want to take on the extra stress by having to 
work to a deadline.

It was clear that there would be no middle ground on this issue.  From 
those that have heard him at previous GLLUG meetings,  you will be all too 
aware that if Ivan has an opinion, you can either agree with it or listen 
to it again.

I am weak, and I conceded the point, in the hope of keeping some sort of 
status quo.

So, after the February meeting we waited on Ivan to announce the date of 
the next meeting.

And we waited.

Communication between the 'committee' is informal to say the least - 
Richard, Steve, John and myself are usually to be found on the IRC 
channel.  I don't know of the others, but I usually get my news of Ivan 
and his thoughts via John.

Mid April came - with no news of a meeting from Ivan.  People were starting 
to demand a meeting in May and I was keen for the group to take part in 
some way with the Installfest events in June.  I approached Sean to see if 
he was still able/prepared to offer us a venue.  Bear in mind that he had 
not heard from me since March.

To my surprise, Sean was happy to have us back and we tried to arrange 
convenient dates.  Unfortunately, due to work commitment from Sean, 
holidays and the building works at the University, it became obvious that 
nothing would be available until the new term, September.  I took the 
opportunity in July, not having heard from Ivan for his arrangements, to 
book dates for the September meeting, and to show willing, a date for the 
October meeting too.

I understood, from what John had told me, that Ivan had accepted this and 
was even prepared to offer his suggestions for talkers.

I had confirmation from Sean, on the 24th July, that both dates were 
booked.

On the 27th July, the 'committee', including Ivan, had an IRC chat.  This 
was to discuss the arrangements for the new GLLUG website.  It was at this 
time I told the members that I had booked dates and asked them for 
confirmation of my intention to make the meetings more regular.  There 
were no objections, so we announced the meeting to the world in August.

John assured me that Ivan was going to arrange the talks.  I held back 
until the 6th September and then started to scrabble around, arranging 
talkers.  To those that gave talks this month, please don't get the 
impression that you were last minute, choices of dispair, but this will 
give you some clue as to why Frank had to wait three week before I could 
confirm, one way or the other if his services would be needed.  Thanks for 
your patience.

Ivan had not made contact with me, or posted to the new gllug-admin mailing 
list that was set up in early September.

******************************************************************************

And then to the meeting - OK GUYS, THE JUICY 
BITS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

******************************************************************************

At the meeting Ivan made two comments that came as a great shock to me.

1). Ivan said that by using Westminster University we would be dumbing down 
the group.  Now, I have been of the opinion that it has been my role and 
responsibility to dumb down the group. I've taken my part in this role 
very seriously, aided partly by natural ability, but honestly, there are 
some bits I have to work at.  The shock to me was that Ivan thought the 
group had some sort of elitist agenda.  I hope it is clear to all that I 
have tried to accommodate all Linux users to the group, and even offered 
help for those that still have to become users.  I honestly wish that 
someone had taken me aside and told me, along with absolutely everyone 
else in the group, that our efforts to help all Linux users was not 
welcome.  Better to have let me know in a moment aside than let me down 
with such a bump anyhow.

2). Ivan suggested that there has been some 'deal' struck between Sean and 
myself.  The way it sounded to me suggested that this 'deal' was for the 
personal gain of Sean and myself, or, at the very least, to the detriment 
of everyone else.   The best response I can muster to this is "I don't 
know what he is on about!".  Sorry that I can't offer a more authoritative 
statement and bring this important issue to a close sooner for the group.  
Once Ivan made this comment, the meeting got very heated very quickely and 
Ivans accusations were left without any further explaination or evidence.  
Maybe Ivan would like to present both of these to the mailing list.  For 
the moment, I can only play the dangerous game of speculation.  
3).
The term 'deal', especially in the context it was used suggests to me 
contracts and returns.  There is no contract, written or verbal, between 
Sean and myself or GLLUG and Westminster or any permutation thereof.

There is an agreement that, for us to use the University as a venue, we 
need to give them some advance warning, ideally of regular meetings.  This 
is the very thing that I have felt has been lacking from the group from 
the beginning, but I have always held back from pushing my point of view 
on the knowledge that Ivan had a contrary viewpoint, a position that no 
amount of arguing, by me at least, was likely to change.  The commitment 
to hold regular meetings is not, in my mind, to Sean and the University 
but to the GLLUG members, many who have asked repeatedly for it for so 
long.

There is one personal gain that I get out of this 'deal', one that I value 
very much.  I can now tell people when the next meeting is when they ask - 
and it is ME that they ask!

The fear I have now is that anyone who heard Ivan's comments at the 
meeting, and the way it was left hanging is that there is some financial 
return for Sean or myself.  If that is Ivan's accusation then he had 
better bring forward some evidence of it or withdraw the remarks, 
publicly, now!  I have not, and consider it very unlikey that I ever will 
receive any financial return from anything I arrange on behalf of GLLUG.  
Nor would I want to.

As said, Ivan previously expressed concern about Sean helping to provide 
facilities for use to use, of having an ulterior motive.  Even if there is 
some other hidden agenda, I don't really care.  All I can see is the 
opportunity to use a venue which has many of the facilities that have been 
lacking since leaving GND.

I am also fearful of people's reactions and any assumptions that have to my 
prompt non-appearance to the pub meeting and that you may be thinking that 
I had something to hide, which would be true, my complete lack of 
composure.

I had thought of Ivan as a friend or colleague at least.  He has always 
been supportive to any problems I've approached him with when running my 
machine or when writing articles, on those brief occasions when he would 
phone me for a chat.

I do know that John and Ivan had a telephone conversation the evening 
before.  John did tell me that that Ivan was gunning for me but not on 
what subject or that it would be with such severity.  I had chatted to 
Ivan briefly during the day, he gave me no warning of an attack.  I don't 
know when Ivan came to his conclusions, prompting him to make his 
accusations, but surely there was a better time to approach the subject 
than at the meeting, or a better route to pass his concerns on by, than 
via my rib cage.

The group needs to discuss the points which have been raised at this 
meeting.

1). Will GLLUG be dumbed down by the input of Westminster University?

1a). Is this a bad thing?

2). Ivan makes clear exactly what he means by 'deal', with some evidence.

3). That Ivan makes public his reasons for his distrust/dislike of the 
University or of Sean.

4). Do you need someone else on the committee to help with the organisation 
now that I have stood down, completely?  

Good luck with finding the answers.

-- 
Colin Murphy
SpudULike at blueyonder.co.uk

A man for all seasons, 'specially pepper.

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