[Gllug] Redhat / Debian / X reversion

[James de Lurker]

On Sat, 7 Jun 2003 10:40:59 +0100 (BST) Chris Bell wrote:
> On Fri 06 Jun, Mike Brodbelt wrote:
[..]

>>......................................................... I migrated off
>>RedHat because I found that I was sending ever more time backporting rpms
>>to no-longer supported versions of RedHat, because I didn't have the
>>time to follow every major version upgrade on my servers.

Even at "enthusiast" level, unemployed, maintaining only personal Linux
systems rather than any commercial admin: I'm headed in this direction.


[..]
>    Debian tries to avoid leaving packages installed but unconfigured, and
> will attempt an initial setup on every package selected, both during initial
> installation and while adding extra packages, but this requires a series of
> configuration choices before I am able to read all of the documentation
> installed with each package. Details about re-starting the complete initial
> configuration later are shown on screen during the installation, and it is
> worth fully reading all screens presented and making notes at the time. Also
> available is dpkg-reconfigure for individual packages.

At least with RedHat installation I just turn off stuff I'm not currently
using, tidy up cron jobs, and know that I only need to take on complicated
applications at a detailed level as I use them. One at a time.

Being forced to deal with everything initially, only to turn most of it
off later is a complete no-no. If you use signature change detection stuff
( like tripwire ) it is a real bastard to continually rebuild policies as
you add new applications. Better to set it up to cover everything that
you intend to use over the life of that particular installed box, and have
done with it. Even if the default configurations are not installed and
working. The signature changes reported are an invaluable guide to what
is happening at a file level when attempts at configuration and upgrades
are made later.

It took me nearly 1 1/2 weeks to suss out specifics of an inn setup
in a RedHat environment to get it working and thoroughly configured.
It isn't something that I would _ever_ do at install time, that's for sure.

Tripwire won't be a choice for Debian I presume - so what does the team
recommend as a viable alternative here?

In taking this approach, I'm certainly aware that one should only install
what is necessary for a particular system - a rule applied to production
servers. Note that RedHat's own reference is always to FULLY INSTALLED
systems - they just don't have the staff to resolve things like broken
upgrade issues on all possible combinations of subset installations, and
the resources to maintain running reference systems of all possible distro
versions and subset install combinations. Particularly custom variations.


>    I have to read through plenty of documentation, and learn about many
> facilities that I will probably not need, but now know exist, but I know
> that any local configuration that follows the documentation instructions
> will be retained when the system is upgraded, and will be applied if at all
> possible. Configuration files are modified directly, and are not duplicated
> elsewhere. I try to retain the original settings as comments so that I can
> undo mistakes.

    Is it possible to setup Debian installation so that you get a complete
audit trail of what you have done throughout this process? Having to take
manual notes of everything and not being able to skip stuff to setup as
a one-off later is something that I'm not happy about. Some programmers'
idea of what I must do during an installation process is OK by me, but an
enforced process with limited bail out choices does not appeal to me one
iota. It is a big deterrent, and percieved as hubris / patronising.

Later RedHat installers do provide a template kickstart file, and lists
of installed rpms / installer choices.

What comparable installed package/selection info is created by Debian's
installer(s)?

   Please excuse my ignorance - if folks here with equal Debian and RedHat
experience can chip in to draw comparisons it would be most illuminating.
I'm just a RedHat focussed person that has used nothing other than this
distro ( and custom variants like Eridani ) since 1998. Zero Debian
building experience; I've only ever hacked up application configs to
get stuff working for other folks with existing Debian builds.

   This sub thread promises to be enlightening for rational decisions
about migrating away from RedHat towards Debian. Thanks guys.

   Very specific to my situation: I have a significant investment
with older systems that have S3 cards of various descriptions. All of them
multiboot Windows OS's, and I'm not going to break those setups with 
hardware changes. For RedHat 7.2:
XFree86 Version 4.1.0 (Red Hat Linux release: 4.1.0-25) / X Window System
(protocol Version 11, revision 0, vendor release 6510)
Release Date: 2 June 2001

All the later distro XFree86 versions seem to have flaky drivers for
S3; they don't work properly for me at the same resolutions as with RH7.2
( screen breakup with mouse movement, scrolling in GUI text windows, etc )

So: I'm currently game to try using later Distros with the older 4.1.0
XFree. rpm issues I can cope with - but I'm not sure of the consequences
trying this approach with Debian Distros. Specific advice ( even educated
guesswork ) would be appreciated.

I can't see how reverting XFree86 to an earlier version could break a
later Gnome  / KDE distro - but if I'm heading for a fall with this idea,
in either RedHat or Debian environments - please chip in!

-- 

   -- James

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