[Gllug] Sun hardware/firewall memory

[David Abbishaw]

Message: 8
Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 18:43:43 +0000 (GMT)
From: Christian Smith <csmith at micromuse.com>
Subject: Re: [Gllug] Sun hardware/firewall memory
To: Greater London Linux Users Group <gllug at gllug.org.uk>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.58.0412211800300.16010 at erol>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

On Tue, 21 Dec 2004, Ben Fitzgerald wrote:

>On Tue, Dec 21, 2004 at 02:57:07PM +0000, Christian Smith wrote:
>> On Mon, 20 Dec 2004, Ben Fitzgerald wrote:
>>
>> >The hardware is proprietary. If you have a solaris run shop you will
>> >pay what sun want, so they charge higher prices. This is one reason
>> >sun are on their knees, IMHO :)
>>
>> Of course, the kit that sun made themselves was proprietry, but that's the
>> meaning of proprietry, just as DELL kit is proprietry to DELL. The higher
>> price comes as a result of superior engineering and support, coupled with
>> the lower volumes.
>>
>> If you are a Solaris shop, there are plenty of alternatives for hardware,
>> especially in the old days. Stuff like SCSI devices have a vast choice of
>> suppliers.
>
>Christian,
>
>yes, I see your point, but almost all hardware is sourced from suppliers
>and brought together to create a product. I'm not saying sun made their
>own capacitors for their own motherboards and refused to verify if other
>capacitors work with their kit (a silly example but you see what I
>mean). If you run solaris on kit you got from a non-sun supplier would
>the support be as complete? Not sure it would, but then they can't cater
>for all permutations to the same standard - who could. My perspective
>here is sun h/w vs. x86, which has a very broad choice that is driving
>down prices.


If I buy a Solaris based solution from Fujitsu, with support contract, I
don't care that Solaris is a SUN product. Fujitsu will support me within
the obligations of the contract, including Solaris.


>
>If you get a V100 now you pay a good whack for it and it comes with a
>bog-standard pci + ide drive. I believe it's western digital? I wouldn't
>describe plugging the cable into the mobo socket as great engineering.
>I think you pay nearly a grand for these. I have no axe to grind against
>sun, they are okay. And their headless support is great. I just know
>that I wouldn't buy one for myself because that's when my value for
>money instincts really go nuts!

Headless on x86 can be good too, dell have DRAC, IBM RSA and if youre
running blades you can be virtually at the console via VNC (although IBM
have weaked it a little :))


So, it'll be how much more expensive than an equivalent PC? Given the
headless support by default, the difference can be saved with a single
call out to the datacenter to manually debug a boot problem. BIOS problem
on your cheap PC? Better get in the car.

Of course, it depends on how much you need the support. The extra $$$ can
look pretty cheap against a days worth of downtime as you scrabble around
sourcing parts for the cheap PC, instead of ringing SUN 24/7 and getting
the parts required and fitted within 4hrs[*].

If your willing to pay you can have the same service with Dell or IBM,
both suppliers will do 4hrs call out and with parts.  Infact if youre
within the M25 it can be guarenteed even faster.  And if you have the $$$
you can have them onsite with parts 24x7.


People get the expensive support and redundent, high quality hardware when
they can't afford the downtime, period. There, SUN, along with the other
high price UNIX vendors, dick on Lintel based solutions.


>
>I think your last comment is telling - "in the old days". Are we agreed
>that the sun is setting? Maybe due to a change in thinking (bad hardware
>is acceptable, just pile 'em high + sell 'em cheap) or perhaps sun's
>customers do not agree that the value sun added in sourcing and
>assembling the hardware justified the price of a system. I suspect
>it could be a bit of both. Either way, it's looking like sun will not last
>too long.


My "in the old days" is based on the SUN kit I have direct experience of.
Lately, I only have direct access to Ultra5/10s, but the Ultra30/60 seem
solid, SCSI beasts, equivalent to the SS20 of old, and the SCSI based
servers seem to be a cut above any PC hardware we have. Just nice details
like front loading PSUs and card mounted removable NVRAM (or hostid card,
whatever) are nice touches PCs don't have.

No, I don't think the sun is setting. The low end V1xx servers look a bit
cheap and nasty, but even that is relative. We've just taken delivery of a
V440, and it looks like quality hardware that will take an absolute
pasting. We'll see how it holds up.

In capital costs, SUN can't compete with the price/performance of PCs (at
least, SPARC based can't), but capital cost can be but the tip of the
iceberg.


>
>Ben
>


Christian

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