[GLLUG] GLLUG still alive?

[John Hearns]

(*)I put an asterisk next to my mention of password protected MRI scan
cdrom earlier.

What would be the rationale for passwording this? I guess the rationale is
you receive the password by other means.

As an aside, surely the format is DICOM?

On Fri, 23 Aug 2024 at 16:45, Damion Yates via GLLUG <
gllug at mailman.lug.org.uk> wrote:

> On Tue, 13 Aug 2024, Polarian via GLLUG wrote:
>
> > By the time I wrote this email, many relies flooded in, so I will
> > answer all of them in this email.
>
> It was so busy I was put off replying as I tried to keep up before I
> could speak up myself!
> I was very pleased to see all the in-line responses but I'd not bothered
> fixing my alpine to use xoauth2 on my consumer gmail.com.  I usually fwd
> these emails to my work address where alpine is working, but can't reply
> to the list from there.
>
> (I've [snipped] various chunks in my response)
>
> > John:
> >
> >> I think the main problem is that Linux has both become mainstream
> >> enough that help is available through many other channels, and also
> >> complex/fragmented enough that a general Linux mailing list may not
> >> be the best place to get help.
> >
> > I believe this is still untrue.
>
> I completely agree.  Sure, it's everywhere, e.g. Android, routers,
> almost all serving infrastructure and HPC.  But it definitely isn't
> mainstream and most people haven't heard of it despite it being around
> over 30 years.
>
> I grew increasingly upset through the day when I heard about
> Cloudstrike, especially with significant press coverage through that day
> proving how critical MS are.  Obviously almost nobody where I work was
> affected (mostly linux with >200k people not using windows).  I didn't
> know until I saw it mentioned in the news.  After this I saw the true
> extent of continued growth of Windows.  I hadn't realised airports or
> banks were now critically dependant on it.  This feels new to me.  Then
> there is the British Library
>
> https://www.bl.uk/home/british-library-cyber-incident-review-8-march-2024.pdf
> this write-up reminds me of the mentality of the 1990s and initial
> 2000s.  I had hoped that mentality had stopped and I'm pretty certain
> banks and airports were on bespoke highly robust systems, not that
> they'd been sold a solution from MS in the past decade or so.
>
>
> Personally if add it up, I've barely used Windows more than a few days
> in my entirely life, moving between several companies that didn't
> mandate its use, or better that were actively insistent on you using
> Linux.
> I'm still hoping for the year of linux on the desktop!
>
> I love my old X11 window manager and find it hard to cope with change
> (Wayland, systemd, hotplug, resolvers, a.out->ELF, lilo->grub, dnsmasq,
> sysv vs bsd inits...).  I cope as and so far have been able to learn the
> new ways, even if they're not as good, I still have a rc.local with a
> bunch of post boot fixups :-}  But so far I'm not hindered in using
> xterm, screen, ssh, irc, pine & vi to work and relax as I have been able
> to do since the late 1900s.  (Wayland might piss me off a lot...)
>
> Basically I hope to move through life largely unaffected by the ups and
> downs.  For several decades things got better or worse in terms of not
> feeling like a 2nd class citizen.
>
> Sometimes you'd see new companies supporting linux, games ported,
> drivers from the h/w companies themselves, breakthroughs in computing
> infra being linux based as a critical backend (most cloud services),
> wine and proton largely solving issues where you sadly have to run a
> .exe rather than hope somebody ported a workable solution natively.
>
> Then you'd get Secureboot, EFI (PE executables), winmodems, winprinters,
> audio drivers, ndiswrapper+wpa_supplicant, firmware updates as a .exe,
> DRM solutions for watching films, DVD playback, new h/w utterly
> unsupported, passwd protected MRI scan cdroms*, companies deciding to
> move to Exchange but disabling IMAP.  And before I forget... Almost
> *ALL* new laptops have h/w driver issues, with only an expensive few
> letting you use all features.  Fingerprint reader, touchpad, audio, BT,
> wifi, webcam... You basically have to research and pick which laptop.
> This has got worse, not better in the past decades.
>
> Many of these negatives get rectified, but sometimes you're in such a
> niche it's down to you, or you have to give up, buy different h/w,
> switch jobs to avoid needing Windows (or MacOS/ChromeOS).  I frequently
> encounter https://xkcd.com/979/
>
> It's this last part that stresses me.  I've managed to get by for
> decades, but none of the core attitudes have fundamentally changed.
>
>
> *****
> I stand by this:
>
> Linux is not yet mainstream for desktop/laptop use.
>
> Worse, I now realise it's not even a given that companies who need
> fileserving/webserving infra would select it.  Cloudstrike taught me
> this recently :(
> *****
>
>
> There has not been an improvement in the attitude of execs in companies,
> either for users wanting to use linux, or h/w companies wanting to sell
> loads of h/w and make money.  Why bother helping a small percentage of
> users?
>
> I fear that at any point in the future a new way of doing things,
> similar to secureboot, could cause all linux users to have to use old
> h/w or expensive h/w to get by.
>
> I know secureboot was addressed quite quickly by volunteers and linux
> companies but these are tiny in comparison to MS.  Also MS broke it for
> many very recently.  I saw this days ago in the news and it requires
> users to have linux boot skills to fix and address this to get back into
> their (I would hope main) partition.
>
> I'll leave my Wayland rant to another thread!  Sorry this is so verbose,
> but it's nice we have a LUG where I can vent and get this off my chest.
>
> > You will very rarely find any Linux/FOSS enthusiasts if you pop to the
> > local boozer (I am yet to hear any techy convos :P), or even at
> > University, very few people know what Linux is at my University, and
> > only a few have started using it since they started. And this is
> > within computer science, where you would expect to find Linux users,
> > in other subjects where people who may be interested in Linux/FOSS but
> > studying say mathematics, or maybe literature, they will be even less
> > likely to bump into another Linux user.
>
> This is sad to hear.  I went to uni in the late 1900s and it was a UNIX
> first environment in almost all universities
> (we had SG IRIX machines, most mostly Sun SPARC, with a handful of
> Linux).
> There was DOS/Netware/Windows for non-tech students increasing in use
> over the 3 years I was there.  Society around me was changing, the old
> days of Mac, Amiga, ST, Archimedes as choices for companies, who were
> moving on from UNIX/CPM (some still 8bit).  Moved to basically
> *everyone* must use PCs with Windows.  Gamers with ZX Speccies, who
> might have moved to an Atari ST, etc, moved to a console (e.g.
> Playstation) or a Windows PC.
>
> I had assumed/hoped that centres of excellence like Universities would
> have moved from legacy expensive UNIX, to free Linux, with Windows PCs
> just for non tech students writing their dissertations.
>
> My daughter is headed off to study CompSci and I had planned on showing
> her some UNIX techy cmdline stuff before she starts, but I assume this
> is now a waste of time?
>
>
> Also yes, you don't hear tech talk in pubs enough.  I used to go to
> SCLUG pub meets in Reading when I lived in the silicon corridor, but I
> can't recall *ever* going for drinks with GLLUG.
>
> To all: I like drinking, I live and work near KX in Camden. [update, see
> the bottom of this thread]
>
> >> That said there's still things which turn up here which don't appear
> >> anywhere else, and enough "old school" users to remember solutions to
> >> rare problems.
>
> Actually yes this interesting.  Sadly I feel like people have moved to
> Windows/MacOS, I know old, hardened, greybeared, UNIX friends, who
> simply moved to MacOS as they tired of fixing stuff as a 2nd class
> citizen.  I found it shocking as I'm in the same camp socially but
> haven't given up yet.
>
> (*)I put an asterisk next to my mention of password protected MRI scan
> cdrom earlier.  This took me >4hrs to eventually hack wine enough to get
> it working.  Once decrypted, I was able to use its Windows .exe to look
> at the scan, but I initiated an unencrypted export so I could use an
> open source X11 solution thereafter.
>
> Alternatively maybe there are fewer queries for support as everything is
> better and there are fewer esoteric issues cropping up so less help is
> needed.  I'm not entirely a pessimist!  Perhaps external support/web
> searches are working better.
>
> >> I don't know the status of the IRC channel as I never used it
> >
> > Shame, hanging out on IRC is fun!
>
> I don't think I knew one for this LUG.  I suffer FOMO so tend to like to
> keep up to completion.  But I'm simply far too busy to be able to keep
> up, so I'd rather cut off my nose to spite my face and not join in the
> 1st place.  At work we use IRC and it's popular.
>
> >> there haven't in-person meetings for many years except for an
> >> occasional meet-up in a pub.
> >
> > I thought that was what most lug meetups were, discussing Linux and
> > FOSS stuff over a nice pint.
> >
> > Was there more interesting meetups? Mini hackathons? local events?
>
> +1 on doing this.  I'm up for drinks.
>
> > I thought it would be a good idea to investigate groups in my region
> > (London) especially how I am trying to branch out and begin to attend
> > events, finding ones close to home would be great!
>
> Glad you reached out, nice to meet you!
>
> > Currently I am planning to attend EuroBSDCon (I know its not Linux,
> > but its still *nix)
> >
> > However these are all international, and I have seen other lug's relay
> > event information within the surrounding regions, but there seems to
> > be no lug's left in/near London, and also no Linux/FOSS events around
> > here either.
>
> A pity.
>
> > Martin:
> >
> >> Most LUGs are dying, if not already dead.  Why?  Very simple: we won.
> >>
> >> Linux went from a hobbyist OS used by geeks and weirdos to global
> >> ubiquity. The geeks and weirdos are still the same, though.
>
> Er... see above.
>
> [snipped]
>
> >> with many keen university students as members who were able to
> >> contact package developers visiting London and persuade them to give
> >> talks on their pet subjects.
> >
> > And yet, Linux is still not big within universities, at least
> > non-russell group universities.
> >
> > My university exclusively uses Windows, apart from a few Macbooks
> > which computer science staff use (MacOS is better than Windows in
> > their eyes) but they are trying to get rid of them too.
>
> *sobs*
>
> [snipped nostalgic rant]
>
> >> Mailing lists are for old people. Old people are finding "better"
> >> things to do with their time than edit
> >> /etc/wpa_supplicant/wpa_supplicant.conf, like dying or spending time
> >> with the family or in the garden.
> >
> > Yikes... that is very negative.
>
> Er... see above.
>
> [snipped refreshing insight from somebody younger who is clearly old
> beyond their years with a passion for tech and linux ;)]
>
> >
>
> [snipped the realisation that the world lacks enough scientists and
> techies meeting up and chatting]
>
> > Linux didn't win, in fact I would say it lost. It was adopted server
> > side, and then wrapped up in abstractions to appeal to the average
> > young person.
>
> Yes this ^^^
>
> > The nerdy side died, Linux didn't win, windows simply failed.  You
> > have Linux which is all about you being free to use however you like,
> > and what do the younger generation do?
>
> > Make the most flashy eye candy desktop possible. Do you think any of
> > them care about FOSS or the *nix way of doing things? No.
>
> TBF enlightenment was huge in the 1990s and that's exactly what you're
> describing.
>
> I'm unsure where the deep techie discussions moved to.  I was addicted
> to Usenet news back in the day, constantly reading everything (FOMO) in
> a number of tech groups, same with various IRC channels.  To answer the
> overriding question of this thread about where that's gone, well
> personally I'm just *extremely* busy.  Look how long it took me to find
> time to reply to this.  Admittedly I work with a bunch of techies and
> scientists who do chat about techy things at lunch.  I also got married
> and had kids which eats time.  Perhaps the getting old and dying is a
> bit of a grim assumption, but having kids is a massive time sink.
> Perhaps the younger generations aren't ramping up enough into linux (or
> general tech) and this is created the void you've observed.  Apparently
> the news tells me that the younger generation isn't even drinking in
> pubs either...
>
> I have a job where I manage a bunch of SRE/SWE experts, only some of
> whom are linux experts.  It's just not needed, things work well here.
> When you start, there are fantastic defaults for .pinerc, .vimrc and
> .bashrc for example.  I consider this a culture++ indication.
>
> As for FOSS, well to be honest I don't care that much about the free (as
> in libre) side of Linux.  I despise arguments about BSD vs GPL vs etc...
>
> If I felt its intentional insidious licensing nature would prevent the
> stuff I ranted about earlier happening with proprietary h/w and drivers
> not working, I might give a cr*p.  But practically nobody in the
> industry cares and it's not helping anyway.  I'm perfectly happy with
> closed source but UNIX ethos systems.  E.g. I prefer a nippy X11 system
> with proprietary nvidia drivers, over a righteous open source driver.
>
> I'll happily discuss the pragmatic security issues over a pint.
>
> > You only tend to find self hosting in privacy paranoid circles these
> > days. The type of people who believe that leaking one packet to the
> > government would be the end of their life.
>
> Spot on.
>
> >> IRC is dead(*). People tend to use Telegram, Signal, Discord, Matrix
> >> (ugh), and friends. I still chat to people I met through LUGs most
> >> days. Just not here.
> >>
> >> * I am in around 30 channels, they're almost all dead.
> >
> > Which is sad, truly sad, but that doesn't mean its the end?
>
> +1
>
> > IRC will never die, no matter what
>
> It would be nice if I could attach an IRC client to the various
> replacements (WhatsApp, Discord, Slack, Google Chat, FB messenger) and I
> typically can for some of those (FB, slack & google certainly, some
> using bitlbee), but the lack of threading makes you a 2nd class citizen.
>
> >> If you're looking for companionship or friendly banter, I'd recommend
> >> organising something, announcing where you will be and when. People
> >> nearby or willing will turn up, usually, in small numbers.
> >
> > I could think of nothing more scary that meeting up with a bunch of
> > strangers, especially as someone from a younger generation.
>
> > Not to mention the fact I will have a disproportionate amount of
> > knowledge compared to the type of people who hang around lug's, it
> > would be like trying to explain rocket science to a baby.
> >
> > Apologies for the email being so long, I didn't want to send multiple
> > emails so I condensed it all as best I could.
>
> Thank you so much for reaching out and starting this thread.  If it
> helps, I'm outgoing and like chatting.  I'd be up for drinks/curry in
> KX, my local curry house would treat people nicely.  Let's aim for a
> weekday after the bank holiday and ~6 people from this list, which might
> be a stretch given the entire point of this thread is about how little
> you find this happening these days.
>
> If people +1 this (you could swamp the list or reply directly), we can
> select a date and time.  My wife *is* a linux user but I strongly
> suspect she'd prefer the night off :-}  I'll ask anyway.
>
>
>   Best wishes,
>
>    - Damion
>
>
> PS I've reformatted with flowed formatting.  Almost nobody old-school
> should notice (other than those in Mutt/Pine where it's now better), but
> depending on the email client it'll allow dynamic screen widths and
> remain clean, whilst adhering to ~72 width as recommended for textual
> emails.  If you're using vim to compose you should :set fo+=aw
>
> Also if anyone is using the old mobile gmail in a phone browser, it
> still supports flowed formatting, but they deprecated this in the new
> desktop UI about 6 years ago, sadly so did Outlook, possibly other
> clients.  I have no idea why, probably ignorance rather than
> intentionally aiming to make text email look ugly.  If anyone happens to
> want to moan at Google about this, I'm still waiting on b/77258484 (Mar
> 29, 2018) to fix this.
>
> --
> GLLUG mailing list
> GLLUG at mailman.lug.org.uk
> https://mailman.lug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/gllug
>
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