[Gloucs] Re: Web site building and ranking
bjh
gloucs at mailman.lug.org.uk
Mon Jan 6 19:17:00 2003
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+++ Response
************************
----- Original Message -----=20
From: "Guy Edwards" <guy_j_edwards@hotpop.com>
To: "MAILING LIST" <gloucs@mailman.lug.org.uk>
Sent: Monday, January 06, 2003 5:01 PM
Subject: [Gloucs] Re: Web site building and ranking
> I know it's normally rude to post a private mail to a list but it's
> relevant and I've removed anything personal.
>=20
> On Mon, 2003-01-06 at 11:03, bjh wrote:
> > This is starting to get to be an interesting exchange and the=20
> > implications for building web sites for blind persons to see=20
> > are normally totally ignored by most site builders...
>=20
> I think the reading devices used by the blind are either voice
> synthesizers or braille screen readers, I don't know for sure. Either
> way I thought they used a basic input from a text based browser, or
> variation upon that. I know there was an article in LinuxFormat a long
> time ago saying that SUSE could now be installed and run by a blind
> person as they had added braille reader support to the SUSE install
> right at the start.
>=20
> If no-one minds me asking, is there anyone on the list using a braille
> or voice device to surf?
>=20
> > A possibly useful site to look at for this purpose is=20
> > http://vision.unco.edu/edtech/primer/ which examples effects of=20
> > a number of factors we have been talking about - may be worth a look =
> > for you...
>=20
> The link is good. Here's a snippet of something I hadn't thought of...
>=20
> "White-on-white is a technique that provides extra help for users who
> may require additional information. While sighted people are easily
> distracted by a lot of extra words on a page, blind people often need
> some extra information to help in navigation or to understand what is
> happening. We put that extra information in a font that is the same
> color as the background. Since most of our web pages have a white
> background, we call this technique white-on-white. It would work just =
as
> well in other colors."=20
>=20
> [ snipped ]
+++ Oh dear, problem here is you have now entered the problem of =
"spamming" the search engine as far as the bots are concerned, same =
colour text as the background colour would be seen by the bot in that =
form as attempting to fool the search engine and your ranking (and even =
listing - you could get the site banned altogether doing that!!!) would =
definitely be affected!
This needs to be looked at as a completely separate exercise probably =
with emails to search engines to describe the intent of the web pages =
and the method of page build and see what they would have to say or =
suggest..
********************************************************************
>=20
> You've been coding 16x longer than I have :-) I've just remembered who
> you are too. Is the date on http://www.gloucs.lug.org.uk/about.php
> correct? E.g. Was the LUG founded in June 2000? I meant to ask many
> months ago.=20
+++ I founded this LUG a good three years ago, but from memory agreed =
with Francis, when he asked if I had any objections to him helping =
develop the LUG, for the June 2000 date to be used.
In the early days there was no interest at all in joining the group, =
apart from Francis...
Mark Lewis had a complete failure to grasp what people were looking for, =
and I had more response from individual web sites I put on the net for =
linux-help and linuxhelp - it is now great to see the support you and =
others are giving for interested persons!
Mark Lewis still fails to respond to my messages - the last one being =
mid December 2002!!! (smile)
*************************************************************************=
******
>=20
> I understand html has changed a lot but most of the massive early
> changes were due to the browser wars, whereas now, with xml creeping =
in
> and browsers priding themselves more in being bug free and standards
> compliant, I really think it's getting better.
>=20
> > Putting it into context - a site can be technically perfect in terms =
of=20
> > minimal html coding etc., but if it is never found, is a total waste =
of=20
> > precious time and resources (time is money) taken to put it =
together.
>=20
> Again, we have different audiences. With an Open Source project I =
would
> rather have a technically perfect site full of content, as it will be
> the program users seeking information, help, or discussion. I would
> quite happily sacrifice search engine rankings for that.
+++ I think you are completely missing the point - it is not about =
"ranking", it is all about people putting different combinations of =
words together in search engine boxes in an attempt to get hold of the =
information you are providing!!! If you have not got the pages =
structured and worded correctly, they will never find you...
*************************************************************************=
>=20
> With Open Source you aren't trying to attract customers - that's a by
> product of good effort. Linus was just having fun when he made his =
modem
> terminal, and everyone else joined in. He wasn't thinking about =
stealing
> market share from Microsoft or replacing Unix in in corporations.
>=20
> I wouldn't worry that an Open Source project isn't attracting new =
users
> through its search engine ratings. I would worry that it didn't have
> ease of use, reliable documentation or stable code. If you make
> something half decent and put the effort into your project, people
> appear from nowhere. I use mailing lists, newsgroups, websites and =
lots
> of 2 way emailing (eg conversations with users who have asked for =
help).
+++ Yes, but if you make your site user friendly to start with, it is =
even easier to apply your promotional activity and succeed with a larger =
group of people who are interested in what you are doing...
+++ The problem for years has been that Linux has developed the image =
with computer users of operating as a semi-secret society, using a =
foreign language to communicate, with responses to questions being given =
in a way that is pretty difficult to understand - people give up with =
attempting to use Linux unless they are pretty determined "thick =
skinned" individuals...
Remember the secret of all marketing success is KISS - keep it simple =
stupid - and everyone understands and comes along to ride!!!
I hope all members of this group want success for Linux after too many =
years of Microsoft profit taking???
*************************************************************************=
*********
>=20
> > Technical computer books are not necessarily written by persons =
qualified by the=20
> > practical experience of the reality of using the facility, in fact =
many books=20
> > unfortunately spread complete nonsense, because the writer will use =
other=20
> > previously written material and regurgitate the information as FACT =
without=20
> > extensive TESTING on the net of the subject matter to see if it =
really
> > does work.
>=20
> I agree, I have a "teach yourself" book on html and xhtml but the =
xhtml
> additions are a complete afterthought and most of the code will never
> get through a validator. This is more a problem of tracking down the
> right book (or other resource) I feel though. that and knowing which
> bits to igore and which bits to remember.
+++ KISS applies here as well...
******************************************************
>=20
> This next bit might be of use to people so:
>=20
> > Suggestion - based on experience - made to help our reader(s) =
(smile),=20
> > and save them months of wasted time, who may be thinking of building =
a=20
> > site or page for the first time - is:
> >=20
> > Sit down with a piece of paper and pencil, decide on every possible =
key=20
> > word for the intended site which you think an internet browser may =
just=20
> > put into a search engine to find the subject matter...
> [snip]
> > Then go to the computer and submit each of those words (and phrases=20
> > or small group of words) into a number of different main target =
search engines...
> >=20
> > Following each separate search, click on the number one site, and =
with=20
> > the site open on the screen, click on View on the browser header =
bar,=20
> > and then source, this opens all the html coding on screen used to =
build=20
> > the page...=20
> > you are now looking for each (if any) meta tagged keyword and=20
> > the actual order the keywords are listed - then click back on to =
normal=20
> > screen and check to see where your own selected search words were =
actually=20
> > visible on the page as text... - RECORD THE SEARCH ENGINE and =
INFORMATION=20
> > - YOU NOW KNOW THE FACTUAL INFORMATION TO BUILD YOUR SITE for that =
given=20
> > search engine and order of search words to achieve a high ranking=20
> > position... (ignore all references to graphics when doing this =
exercise!).=20
> > Only at this point can you even think about how a site is going to =
be built=20
> > to make it as visually attractive as possible to appeal to the =
viewer when=20
> > he/she has found it... (Perhaps with very careful use of colour =
alone and=20
> > the MINIMAL amount of text on each page to create the interest from =
the=20
> > reader without boring and also to achieve the search engine ranking=20
> > required - remember, each additional NON keyword will normally =
dilute=20
> > the effect of the keywords for ranking purposes - it is about =
achieving=20
> > balanced copy without trying to put a book on the page (like this=20
> > email is starting to look like - smile)...
>=20
> I thought the bot did more than just grep (not grep, but you know what =
I
> mean) the page for words. There's some kind of html parsing going on.
+++ Suggest you take a while to digest the articles on the link I put on =
a previous message http://www.searchenginewatch.com/ I know it is a bit =
of a pain to wade through, but it is well worth the time involved - =
search engines differ from each other with their bots methods - but all =
will home in on the text on the page! (with the possible exception of =
certain meta crawler based search engines which will only look at the =
meta tagged sections).
*******************************************
>=20
> > You then proceed and carry out the lengthy exercise for each of the =
target=20
> > search engines and slowly a picture will develop for you to move to =
the=20
> > final stage of actually building your webpage for that given set of =
circumstances=20
> > - it may be that in order to get certain search engines to rank your =
site that=20
> > you will have to build different pages with basically the same =
information,=20
> > but structured in a totally different way so that the site will be =
ranked=20
> > highly by different search engines - if you have to do this, you =
then submit=20
> > the different pages to the specific search engine and you should =
achieve=20
> > utopia over a period of time - I have noticed that some search =
engines=20
> > will suddenly rank one of my sites anything up to two years after =
submission=20
> > for no particular reasons...
>=20
> I'd say because it's ranking against a lot of other sites which rise =
and
> fall as they're developed or removed. But there's more to it of course
> (different passes in the first and second month are done by different
> types of googlebot for instance)
+++ Not necessarily (as far as your point in brackets is concerned).
************************************************
>=20
> > The fastest search engine to rank is probably at present Lycos, and =
although=20
> > they push paid for submissions, they will rank a free submission =
site after=20
> > about four to six weeks! =
http://www.lycos.co.uk/service/addasite.html ,=20
> > forget what they say on the site, they do rank FREE submissions =
quickly -=20
> > they need the information you have on your site to build their data =
base=20
> > and attract new customers!=20
> > =
*************************************************************************=
****************
>=20
> > > Do a Google for Linux cad viewer, or Linux dwg, and the sites at =
the top
> > > of the search. Or do a search for Gloucester Linux , top again.
> >=20
> > *** Sorry, but that is because you are being very specific - that is =
Gloucester Linux will
> > only be found by someone who puts "Gloucester Linux" in the search =
engine at that time...
>=20
> My argument would be, if you're looking for Linux in Gloucester, it's
> the two words you type in. It's a very specific site. How do you =
Google
> for Linux in Gloucester without using those two words? If they're =
after
> "Linux Support" there's better sites out there to help them, why bring
> them to this site? They aren't going to give me money and I'm not
> providing a better resource that the bigger sites.
+++ To judge from most of the messages between members, most relate to =
help with problems - are we now saying we don't want to help anyone =
now??? Is this group now a closed shop??? Do we want to attract more =
experts to the group???? - You can provide support by putting in links =
to the larger sites who can handle the questions!!!
***********************************************************************
>=20
> > linux, help, support, information, assistance, meeting, meetings, =
regular, expertise,=20
> > looking, for, programmes, programs, of, message, board, glos, =
gloucestershire, cotswolds,=20
> > uk, up, dates, updates, need, reviews, projects, code, codes, =
presentations, talks, experts,=20
> > begginner, begginers, on, distros, method, methods, booting, dual, =
windows, with, install,=20
> > installing, installation, dual, and, easy, I, use, mandrake, suse, =
Suse, SuSe, red, hat,=20
> > redhat, derbian, in, member, members, group, to, (or whatever)...
>=20
> Right, for a start that capitalization doesn't matter (suse*3) as far =
as
> I know,=20
+++ You use different spellings and lower and upper case letters of =
words in your meta tags (hidden words) to cope with incorrect input - =
that is, is it "susee" or "SuSee" or "suse"
********************************************************
and second, "on, and, I, up, for, with, need" ..etc are junk. I
> would refuse to put them in any site.
+++ Sorry again - You have just made the classic mistake, these simple =
words are part of the text strings that must appear on a page to get =
maximum effect from input into a search box... That is, they are link =
words for terse wording put into the boxes *** if someone puts "Linux in =
Gloucester" into a search engine request box, you need all the words as =
text on that page in order for the search engine to maximise on the =
search request and cough your page to the top of the list of suggested =
sites - Please don't underestimate the importance of these link words...
*************************************************************
>=20
> From the present GLUG site:
> <meta content=3D"Linux Gloucestershire GlosLUG Linux User Group
> gloucs.lug.org.uk Linux support Cheltenham Stroud Gloucester Cotswolds
> Forest open source mandrake redhat suse" name=3D"keywords" />
> =20
> We just slapped some words in, (Just noticed Linux is in 3 times - =
doh!)
> I think we've got the main meat of it already. My future idea would be
> to go through each of the GLUG sites PHP pages and add a set of tags
> specific for each page. Same for Lx-Viewer (I'll probably do this
> tonight).
>=20
> [snip]
>=20
> > The combination now starts to get large and the potential cachment =
factor huge=20
> > - use mis spelt words as meta tagged key words to get all the =
incorrect keyboard input!!!
>=20
> This is where I decide I don't want junk in my html. If you misspell a
> search, I'd expect the user to notice. Google will tell you, or you'll
> end up with an obviously depleted or weird search result.
>=20
> I'm not going to penalize everyone with a bucket load of html to try =
and
> drag in misspellings. Just a choice I can afford to make. If I was =
being
> paid wads of cash, I might change my mind.
+++ What??? It takes seconds to put the odd misspelling in as a hidden =
meta tag with your other essential keywords!!!
********************************************************
>=20
> That and don't you think it's possible that the search engines may
> oneday penalize overloading of search tags? I've no idea what the =
limit
> might be.
+++ You have to really home in on the necessary keywords together with a =
few obvious misspellings...
***********************************************************************
You point below is quite valid.
>=20
> > *** Some of us are starting to think that the Google bots will pick =
up=20
> > "booked mark" sites as links, the Google guys are very reluctant to=20
> > let people know how there bots really work - if they made the=20
> > information truly known we would all be using the info to fix our=20
> > listings!
+++ A text line on the site saying "Bookmark this site now" would be a =
giant step forward...
********************************************************************
Barrie ( A useful exchange - smile)...
>=20
> Guy
> _______________________________________________
> gloucs mailing list
> gloucs@mailman.lug.org.uk
> http://mailman.lug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/gloucs
>
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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><STRONG>+++ =
Response</STRONG></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>************************</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>----- Original Message ----- </FONT>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>From: "Guy Edwards" <</FONT><A=20
href=3D"mailto:guy_j_edwards@hotpop.com"><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>guy_j_edwards@hotpop.com</FONT></A><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>To: "MAILING LIST" <</FONT><A=20
href=3D"mailto:gloucs@mailman.lug.org.uk"><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>gloucs@mailman.lug.org.uk</FONT></A><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Sent: Monday, January 06, 2003 5:01 =
PM</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Subject: [Gloucs] Re: Web site building =
and=20
ranking</FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial><BR><FONT size=3D2></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>> I know it's normally rude to post =
a private=20
mail to a list but it's<BR>> relevant and I've removed anything=20
personal.<BR>> <BR>> On Mon, 2003-01-06 at 11:03, bjh =
wrote:<BR>> >=20
This is starting to get to be an interesting exchange and the <BR>> =
>=20
implications for building web sites for blind persons to see <BR>> =
> are=20
normally totally ignored by most site builders...<BR>> <BR>> I =
think the=20
reading devices used by the blind are either voice<BR>> synthesizers =
or=20
braille screen readers, I don't know for sure. Either<BR>> way I =
thought they=20
used a basic input from a text based browser, or<BR>> variation upon =
that. I=20
know there was an article in LinuxFormat a long<BR>> time ago saying =
that=20
SUSE could now be installed and run by a blind<BR>> person as they =
had added=20
braille reader support to the SUSE install<BR>> right at the =
start.<BR>>=20
<BR>> If no-one minds me asking, is there anyone on the list using a=20
braille<BR>> or voice device to surf?<BR>> <BR>> > A =
possibly useful=20
site to look at for this purpose is <BR>> > </FONT><A=20
href=3D"http://vision.unco.edu/edtech/primer/"><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>http://vision.unco.edu/edtech/primer/</FONT></A><FONT =
face=3DArial size=3D2>=20
which examples effects of <BR>> > a number of factors we have been =
talking=20
about - may be worth a look <BR>> > for you...<BR>> <BR>> =
The link=20
is good. Here's a snippet of something I hadn't thought of...<BR>> =
<BR>>=20
"White-on-white is a technique that provides extra help for users =
who<BR>>=20
may require additional information. While sighted people are =
easily<BR>>=20
distracted by a lot of extra words on a page, blind people often =
need<BR>>=20
some extra information to help in navigation or to understand what =
is<BR>>=20
happening. We put that extra information in a font that is the =
same<BR>>=20
color as the background. Since most of our web pages have a =
white<BR>>=20
background, we call this technique white-on-white. It would work just =
as<BR>>=20
well in other colors." <BR>> <BR>> [ snipped ]</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><STRONG>+++ Oh dear</STRONG>, problem =
here is you=20
have now entered the problem of "spamming" the search engine as far as =
the bots=20
are concerned, same colour text as the background colour would be seen =
by the=20
bot in that form as attempting to fool the search engine and your =
ranking (and=20
even listing - you could get the site banned altogether doing that!!!) =
would=20
definitely be affected!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>This needs to be looked at as a =
completely separate=20
exercise probably with emails to search engines to describe the intent =
of the=20
web pages and the method of page build and see what they would have to =
say or=20
suggest..</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>****************************************************************=
****</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><BR><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>> <BR>> You've been coding =
16x longer=20
than I have :-) I've just remembered who<BR>> you are too. Is the =
date on=20
</FONT><A href=3D"http://www.gloucs.lug.org.uk/about.php"><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>http://www.gloucs.lug.org.uk/about.php</FONT></A><BR><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>> correct? E.g. Was the LUG founded in June 2000? I meant to =
ask=20
many<BR>> months ago. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><STRONG><FONT size=3D3>+++</FONT> =
</STRONG>I founded=20
this LUG a good three years ago, but from memory agreed with Francis, =
when he=20
asked if I had any objections to him helping develop the LUG, for the =
June 2000=20
date to be used.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>In the early days there was no interest =
at all in=20
joining the group, apart from Francis...</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Mark Lewis had a complete failure to =
grasp what=20
people were looking for, and I had more response =
from individual web=20
sites I put on the net for linux-help and linuxhelp - it is now great to =
see the=20
support you and others are giving for interested persons!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Mark Lewis still fails to respond to my =
messages -=20
the last one being mid December 2002!!! (smile)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>****************************************************************=
***************<BR>>=20
<BR>> I understand html has changed a lot but most of the massive=20
early<BR>> changes were due to the browser wars, whereas now, with =
xml=20
creeping in<BR>> and browsers priding themselves more in being bug =
free and=20
standards<BR>> compliant, I really think it's getting better.<BR>> =
<BR>> > Putting it into context - a site can be technically =
perfect in=20
terms of <BR>> > minimal html coding etc., but if it is never =
found, is a=20
total waste of <BR>> > precious time and resources (time is money) =
taken=20
to put it together.<BR>> <BR>> Again, we have different audiences. =
With an=20
Open Source project I would<BR>> rather have a technically perfect =
site full=20
of content, as it will be<BR>> the program users seeking information, =
help,=20
or discussion. I would<BR>> quite happily sacrifice search engine =
rankings=20
for that.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><STRONG>+++ I think</STRONG> you are =
completely=20
missing the point - it is not about "ranking", it is all about people =
putting=20
different combinations of words together in search engine boxes in an =
attempt to=20
get hold of the information you are providing!!! If you have not got the =
pages=20
structured and worded correctly, they will never find =
you...</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>****************************************************************=
*********<BR>>=20
<BR>> With Open Source you aren't trying to attract customers - =
that's a=20
by<BR>> product of good effort. Linus was just having fun when he =
made his=20
modem<BR>> terminal, and everyone else joined in. He wasn't thinking =
about=20
stealing<BR>> market share from Microsoft or replacing Unix in in=20
corporations.<BR>> <BR>> I wouldn't worry that an Open Source =
project=20
isn't attracting new users<BR>> through its search engine ratings. I =
would=20
worry that it didn't have<BR>> ease of use, reliable documentation or =
stable=20
code. If you make<BR>> something half decent and put the effort into =
your=20
project, people<BR>> appear from nowhere. I use mailing lists, =
newsgroups,=20
websites and lots<BR>> of 2 way emailing (eg conversations with users =
who=20
have asked for help).</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><STRONG>+++ Yes</STRONG>, but if you =
make your site=20
user friendly to start with, it is even easier to apply your promotional =
activity and succeed with a larger group of people who are interested in =
what=20
you are doing...</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><STRONG>+++ The problem</STRONG> for =
years has been=20
that Linux has developed the image with computer users of operating as a =
semi-secret society, using a foreign language to communicate, with=20
responses to questions being given in a way that is pretty difficult to=20
understand - people give up with attempting to use Linux unless they are =
pretty=20
determined "thick skinned" individuals...</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Remember the secret of all marketing =
success is=20
KISS - keep it simple stupid - and everyone understands and comes along =
to=20
ride!!!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I hope all members of this group want =
success for=20
Linux after too many years of Microsoft profit taking???</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>****************************************************************=
******************<BR>>=20
<BR>> > Technical computer books are not necessarily written by =
persons=20
qualified by the <BR>> > practical experience of the reality of =
using the=20
facility, in fact many books <BR>> > unfortunately spread complete =
nonsense, because the writer will use other <BR>> > previously =
written=20
material and regurgitate the information as FACT without <BR>> > =
extensive=20
TESTING on the net of the subject matter to see if it really<BR>> =
> does=20
work.<BR>> <BR>> I agree, I have a "teach yourself" book on html =
and xhtml=20
but the xhtml<BR>> additions are a complete afterthought and most of =
the code=20
will never<BR>> get through a validator. This is more a problem of =
tracking=20
down the<BR>> right book (or other resource) I feel though. that and =
knowing=20
which<BR>> bits to igore and which bits to remember.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><STRONG>+++ KISS applies here as=20
well...</STRONG></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>******************************************************<BR>> =
<BR>>=20
This next bit might be of use to people so:<BR>> <BR>> > =
Suggestion -=20
based on experience - made to help our reader(s) (smile), <BR>> > =
and save=20
them months of wasted time, who may be thinking of building a <BR>> =
> site=20
or page for the first time - is:<BR>> > <BR>> > Sit down =
with a=20
piece of paper and pencil, decide on every possible key <BR>> > =
word for=20
the intended site which you think an internet browser may just <BR>> =
> put=20
into a search engine to find the subject matter...<BR>> =
[snip]<BR>> >=20
Then go to the computer and submit each of those words (and phrases =
<BR>>=20
> or small group of words) into a number of different main target =
search=20
engines...<BR>> > <BR>> > Following each separate search, =
click on=20
the number one site, and with <BR>> > the site open on the screen, =
click=20
on View on the browser header bar, <BR>> > and then source, this =
opens all=20
the html coding on screen used to build <BR>> > the page... =
<BR>> >=20
you are now looking for each (if any) meta tagged keyword and <BR>> =
> the=20
actual order the keywords are listed - then click back on to normal =
<BR>>=20
> screen and check to see where your own selected search words were =
actually=20
<BR>> > visible on the page as text... - RECORD THE SEARCH ENGINE =
and=20
INFORMATION <BR>> > - YOU NOW KNOW THE FACTUAL INFORMATION TO =
BUILD YOUR=20
SITE for that given <BR>> > search engine and order of search =
words to=20
achieve a high ranking <BR>> > position... (ignore all references =
to=20
graphics when doing this exercise!). <BR>> > Only at this point =
can you=20
even think about how a site is going to be built <BR>> > to make =
it as=20
visually attractive as possible to appeal to the viewer when <BR>> =
>=20
he/she has found it... (Perhaps with very careful use of colour alone =
and=20
<BR>> > the MINIMAL amount of text on each page to create the =
interest=20
from the <BR>> > reader without boring and also to achieve the =
search=20
engine ranking <BR>> > required - remember, each additional NON =
keyword=20
will normally dilute <BR>> > the effect of the keywords for =
ranking=20
purposes - it is about achieving <BR>> > balanced copy without =
trying to=20
put a book on the page (like this <BR>> > email is starting to =
look like -=20
smile)...<BR>> <BR>> I thought the bot did more than just grep =
(not grep,=20
but you know what I<BR>> mean) the page for words. There's some kind =
of html=20
parsing going on.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><STRONG>+++ Suggest</STRONG> you take a =
while to=20
digest the articles on the link I put on a previous message </FONT><A=20
href=3D"http://www.searchenginewatch.com/"><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>http://www.searchenginewatch.com/</FONT></A><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2> I know it is a bit of a pain to wade through, but it is =
well worth=20
the time involved - search engines differ from each other with their =
bots=20
methods - but all will home in on the text on the page! (with the =
possible=20
exception of certain meta crawler based search engines which will only =
look at=20
the meta tagged sections).</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2>*******************************************<BR>>=20
<BR>> > You then proceed and carry out the lengthy exercise for =
each of=20
the target <BR>> > search engines and slowly a picture will =
develop for=20
you to move to the <BR>> > final stage of actually building your =
webpage=20
for that given set of circumstances <BR>> > - it may be that in =
order to=20
get certain search engines to rank your site that <BR>> > you will =
have to=20
build different pages with basically the same information, <BR>> > =
but=20
structured in a totally different way so that the site will be ranked =
<BR>>=20
> highly by different search engines - if you have to do this, you =
then=20
submit <BR>> > the different pages to the specific search engine =
and you=20
should achieve <BR>> > utopia over a period of time - I have =
noticed that=20
some search engines <BR>> > will suddenly rank one of my sites =
anything up=20
to two years after submission <BR>> > for no particular =
reasons...<BR>>=20
<BR>> I'd say because it's ranking against a lot of other sites which =
rise=20
and<BR>> fall as they're developed or removed. But there's more to it =
of=20
course<BR>> (different passes in the first and second month are done =
by=20
different<BR>> types of googlebot for instance)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><STRONG>+++ Not necessarily</STRONG> =
(as far as=20
your point in brackets is concerned).</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>************************************************<BR>> =
<BR>> >=20
The fastest search engine to rank is probably at present Lycos, and =
although=20
<BR>> > they push paid for submissions, they will rank a free =
submission=20
site after <BR>> > about four to six weeks! </FONT><A=20
href=3D"http://www.lycos.co.uk/service/addasite.html"><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2>http://www.lycos.co.uk/service/addasite.html</FONT></A><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
size=3D2> , <BR>> > forget what they say on the site, they =
do rank=20
FREE submissions quickly - <BR>> > they need the information you =
have on=20
your site to build their data base <BR>> > and attract new =
customers!=20
<BR>> >=20
*************************************************************************=
****************<BR>>=20
<BR>> > > Do a Google for Linux cad viewer, or Linux dwg, and =
the sites=20
at the top<BR>> > > of the search. Or do a search for =
Gloucester Linux=20
, top again.<BR>> > <BR>> > *** Sorry, but that is because =
you are=20
being very specific - that is Gloucester Linux will<BR>> > only be =
found=20
by someone who puts "Gloucester Linux" in the search engine at that=20
time...<BR>> <BR>> My argument would be, if you're looking for =
Linux in=20
Gloucester, it's<BR>> the two words you type in. It's a very specific =
site.=20
How do you Google<BR>> for Linux in Gloucester without using those =
two words?=20
If they're after<BR>> "Linux Support" there's better sites out there =
to help=20
them, why bring<BR>> them to this site? They aren't going to give me =
money=20
and I'm not<BR>> providing a better resource that the bigger=20
sites.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><STRONG>+++ To judge</STRONG> from most =
of the=20
messages between members, most relate to help with problems - are we now =
saying=20
we don't want to help anyone now??? Is this group now a closed shop??? =
Do we=20
want to attract more experts to the group???? - You can provide support =
by=20
putting in links to the larger sites who can handle the=20
questions!!!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>****************************************************************=
*******<BR>>=20
<BR>> > linux, help, support, information, assistance, meeting, =
meetings,=20
regular, expertise, <BR>> > looking, for, programmes, programs, =
of,=20
message, board, glos, gloucestershire, cotswolds, <BR>> > uk, up, =
dates,=20
updates, need, reviews, projects, code, codes, presentations, talks, =
experts,=20
<BR>> > begginner, begginers, on, distros, method, methods, =
booting, dual,=20
windows, with, install, <BR>> > installing, installation, dual, =
and, easy,=20
I, use, mandrake, suse, Suse, SuSe, red, hat, <BR>> > redhat, =
derbian, in,=20
member, members, group, to, (or whatever)...<BR>> <BR>> Right, for =
a start=20
that capitalization doesn't matter (suse*3) as far as<BR>> I know,=20
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><STRONG>+++ You use</STRONG> different =
spellings=20
and lower and upper case letters of words in your meta tags (hidden =
words) to=20
cope with incorrect input - that is, is it "susee" or "SuSee" or=20
"suse"</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>********************************************************</FONT><=
/DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>and second, "on, and, I, up, for, with, =
need" ..etc=20
are junk. I<BR>> would refuse to put them in any =
site.<BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><STRONG>+++ Sorry again</STRONG> - You =
have just=20
made the classic mistake, these simple words are part of the text =
strings that=20
must appear on a page to get maximum effect from input into a search =
box... That=20
is, they are link words for terse wording put into the boxes *** if =
someone puts=20
"Linux in Gloucester" into a search engine request box, you need all the =
words=20
as text on that page in order for the search engine to maximise on the =
search=20
request and cough your page to the top of the list of suggested sites - =
Please=20
don't underestimate the importance of these link words...</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>*************************************************************<BR=
>>=20
<BR>> From the present GLUG site:<BR>> <meta =
content=3D"Linux=20
Gloucestershire GlosLUG Linux User Group<BR>> gloucs.lug.org.uk Linux =
support=20
Cheltenham Stroud Gloucester Cotswolds<BR>> Forest open source =
mandrake=20
redhat suse" name=3D"keywords" /><BR>>=20
&=
nbsp; =20
<BR>> We just slapped some words in, (Just noticed Linux is in 3 =
times -=20
doh!)<BR>> I think we've got the main meat of it already. My future =
idea=20
would be<BR>> to go through each of the GLUG sites PHP pages and add =
a set of=20
tags<BR>> specific for each page. Same for Lx-Viewer (I'll probably =
do=20
this<BR>> tonight).<BR>> <BR>> [snip]<BR>> <BR>> > The =
combination now starts to get large and the potential cachment factor =
huge=20
<BR>> > - use mis spelt words as meta tagged key words to get all =
the=20
incorrect keyboard input!!!<BR>> <BR>> This is where I decide I =
don't want=20
junk in my html. If you misspell a<BR>> search, I'd expect the user =
to=20
notice. Google will tell you, or you'll<BR>> end up with an obviously =
depleted or weird search result.<BR>> <BR>> I'm not going to =
penalize=20
everyone with a bucket load of html to try and<BR>> drag in =
misspellings.=20
Just a choice I can afford to make. If I was being<BR>> paid wads of =
cash, I=20
might change my mind.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><STRONG>+++ What???</STRONG> It takes =
seconds to=20
put the odd misspelling in as a hidden meta tag with your other =
essential=20
keywords!!!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>********************************************************<BR>>=
<BR>>=20
That and don't you think it's possible that the search engines =
may<BR>>=20
oneday penalize overloading of search tags? I've no idea what the =
limit<BR>>=20
might be.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><STRONG>+++ You have to really home in =
on</STRONG>=20
the necessary keywords together with a few obvious =
misspellings...</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>****************************************************************=
*******</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>You point below is quite valid.<BR>> =
<BR>>=20
> *** Some of us are starting to think that the Google bots will pick =
up=20
<BR>> > "booked mark" sites as links, the Google guys are very =
reluctant=20
to <BR>> > let people know how there bots really work - if they =
made the=20
<BR>> > information truly known we would all be using the info to =
fix our=20
<BR>> > listings!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><STRONG>+++ A text line on the site =
saying=20
"Bookmark this site now" would be a giant step =
forward...</STRONG></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>****************************************************************=
****</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Barrie ( A useful exchange - =
smile)...<BR>>=20
<BR>> Guy<BR>> =
_______________________________________________<BR>>=20
gloucs mailing list<BR>> </FONT><A=20
href=3D"mailto:gloucs@mailman.lug.org.uk"><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>gloucs@mailman.lug.org.uk</FONT></A><BR><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2>>=20
</FONT><A =
href=3D"http://mailman.lug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/gloucs"><FONT=20
face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>http://mailman.lug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/gloucs</FONT></A><BR>=
<FONT=20
face=3DArial size=3D2>> </FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>
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