[Infopoint] Bracknell BCF event etc

[Alan Pope]

On 29/11/05, Alan Pope <alan.pope at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 28/11/05, alan c <aeclist at candt.waitrose.com> wrote:
> > It would be useful to list the points you know you have gained from
> > experience - is this possible now?
> >
>
> Uhm. I think it might be useful to learn this stuff by reading some of
> the old mails to this list [1], the InfoPoint site [2] and the
> HantsLUG website [3], rather than expect people who are clearly as
> busy as you do that for you.
>

Bah! Did a "hugo" and missed these.

[1] http://mailman.lug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/infopoint
[2] http://infopoint.jonobacon.org/
[3] http://hants.lug.org.uk/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?InfoPoints

> > And the few weeks before Xmas should be one of the most busy at the
> > Computer Fair. I would have been delighted if the negotiations were
>
> Ok, so if they're really very busy, then you're going to get a lot
> more people than usual see an under-prepared stand, rather than
> testing out your skills on a small fair. That's not really going to
> help the InfoPoint movement is it?
>
> > already in place etc, I would be riding with them. Perhaps I can visit
> > later, and take on board experience which cannot be passed via this
> > group etc.
> >
>
> Sounds like you're very keen to get this InfoPoint up and running,
> which is of course great.
>
> > I do not have any doubt that you have things going well. I came to a LUG
> > meeting, it was very well organised.
> >
>
> The HantsLUG meet is indeed a very well organised meet. LUG meets and
> InfoPoints are very different beasts. I've been using Linux and
> attending meets for some years now. However circumstances have meant
> that I have not attended or helped out at any InfoPoints. Having seen
> the amount of preparation that Tony and the rest of the LUG does for
> one, I wouldn't *dream* of running an InfoPoint with under 2 weeks
> prep having never attended one!
>
> > However, unless the *details* of the final outcome from Jono's  earlier
> > negotiations are available to me, all I can say to BCF is - what I have
>
> What details do you want? Specifically? There's quite a bit of info in
> the [1] [2] [3] websites listed below.
>
> > said to them to date - that there 'has been an agreement in the past'.
> > Which *is* a bit weak as a negotiating stance, isn't it?
> >
>
> Depends what you're trying to negotiate.
>
> > As it is, this is somewhat breaking new ground, not totally new, but in
> > some ways it is. As we know there are blurred edges about charging,
>
> They are only blurred as a result of people running non-InfoPoint
> project based infopoints. The best thing you can do is decide whether
> you want to run an "official" InfoPoint in which case I'd strongly
> recommend sticking to the agreements that have been made in the past,
> talking to the people who've done it already, turn up to an InfoPoint
> and see how it's done.
>
> > mostly around the clarity of concept of [Infopoint vs a LUG], in
> > combinations with recent [paid and unpaid] events.
> >
>
> But that's the point. You're discussing this on the "official"
> InfoPoint list, which implies that you want to run an "official"
> InfoPoint as set out by Jono in May last year. If you want to go
> "maverick" and do a "SussexLUG" and run one then you're fine to do
> that, but don't call it an InfoPoint because that's not what it is, is
> it? You're running a table at a fair, doing whatever it is you plan to
> do, but you're not running an InfoPoint. Ok you could argue that if it
> walks like an InfoPoint and quacks like an InfoPoint then it is one,
> but imagine what would happen if every LUG or user group/community
> went maverick and did this. Where would that leave the Hants guys who
> just plain can't afford to pay for tables? Where would that leave the
> delicate relationships that others have spent their time and
> considerable effort to cultivate.
>
> > And the more organised one becomes,  the more likely it is that  I will
> > be mistakenly seen as an organisation worthy of paying the way, and
> > hard-headed traders will resent a freebie, as they might see it, being
> > subsidised by them.
> >
>
> Indeed, and this has been discussed in the past on this list and others.
>
> > Yes I believe you but - What Is the 'deal' *specifically*?
> >
>
> There's about 18 months worth of posts in the InfoPoint mailing list
> [1] if you have a look. It's open to all.
>
> > But,  why would I expect someone to give me a handout of (35 pounds) on
> > the strength of someone I know who said someone else said they had
> > agreed at some previous time. Surely the point is made?
> >
>
> This is exactly why you should not go maverick and try to negotiate
> these things yourself! The work has already been done centrally. There
> is no need for someone to question your intentions if you're part of
> the InfoPoint project.
>
> > Sure will, and I have. If more details of the previous agreement
> > surfaces please do not heasitate to let me know?
> >
>
> As I said, the mailing list is public access.
>
> > In addition it would be quite useful to also then know which if any BCF
> > events invoked it.
> >
>
> Check the previous meeting records pages on the links below to see?
>
> > (SCLUG, I must say I would prefer SVLUG though :-)  )
> >
>
> I have attended an SVLUG meet near Palo Alto and thoroughly enjoyed
> the experience. I noted how they did things with my own eyes, and
> brought back some ideas to our LUG which we have implemented. One or
> two of these have contributed to the efficiency of the HantsLUG meets
> you have commented on. Further illustrating the point that visiting
> other peoples meets and learning how they do things from first hand
> experience is very valuable.
>
> > In this case the newbie posted it was specifically the (single) card I
> > asked to be put up.
>
> And what exactly has happened on the micro-LUG you have organised
> since you set it up? Have you had any meets? Setup a website or used
> any other collaborative tools? Sent out any motivational emails to the
> micro-LUG recently? Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying there's
> anything specifically wrong with micro-LUGs, just that they need work,
> a lot of work. If you're not committed to doing that work then they
> will whither and die. Same will happen for InfoPoints. The *only* and
> I mean *ONLY* reason that the InfoPoints have happened in Hampshire
> with the regularity and quality they have is due (in my opinion) to
> the massive amount of work Tony has put in assisted by Laura, Ian,
> Mark, Lisi and others. If you don't have that leadership, *and* a
> great team, it (micro-LUG *and* InfoPoint) will go nowhere *fast*.
>
> > The difference is that he will for a short period be dealing with a
> > small local group, before feeling the sometimes cool breeze of people
> > who take a county wide LUG for granted, and Linux too.
> >
>
> My experience of micro-LUGs is this:
>
>   Someone decides they want a more local lug because of one, some or
> none of the following reasons
>
>   a) They want a more local meeting place because the County/City wide
> LUG meet is too far away or inconvenient.
>   b) They want to setup resources (website/list/whatever) that they
> control and have the ability to change without consensus.
>   c) Some other reason I can't think of.
>
>   Net result.
>
>   People post questions to the mailing list and/or forums and get no
> reply because the micro-LUG doesn't have a critical mass of "experts"
> who can assist.
>
>   A lack of "members" means that there is a lack of motivation in the
> "chairman" to focus on the micro-LUG so it gets neglected.
>
>   It implodes/dies.
>
> The problem with micro-LUGs at the moment is one of numbers. HantsLUG
> has something like 200 members (if you use 'mailing list subscribers')
> as a measure of membership, of which about 30 regularly post to the
> mailing list, 20 or so maintain the website, and 20-30 or so come to
> the meetings regularly. Obviously that's going to fluctuate throughout
> the year, but roughly speaking it's about right. With a micro-LUG you
> have significantly less "pool" of people to bring into the LUG, and so
> proportionally those numbers go down.
>
> > I found some of my initial contact with LUGs rather uncomfortable. And
> > as you have seen by now, I need not be slow at coming forward. I should
> > say that Hants LUG is very organised, active and very friendly! It is
> > just a long drive away :-(
> >
>
> Indeed. I drive 50 miles or so to each HantsLUG meet I go to. I have a
> 2 year old daughter, a wife and a business. Everyone has their own
> priorities in life.
>
> > It is, quite intentionally. Such a group is very much a familiar
> > environment to existing 'doze users. Newbies will usually be clinging to
> > windoze for quite a while, and initial forays for information and
> > comfort will be coming from a windoze environment.
> >
>
> What makes you think that!? We've had a number of people turn up to
> the HantsLUG meet with Linux already installed, wanting some help
> getting some wierd hardware working. Not everyone is a windows user
> waiting to be converted. Many have already made the switch.
>
> > I still bear the bruises of starting linux, even though it was an
> > experience with many intensely joyful moments.
> >
>
> Heh. Yeah, I still get moments like that, but they're much fewer and
> more far betweeen.
>
> > Holding someones hand in a local pub could be one way. Visiting a user
>
> We have had social meets in HantsLUG. We used to have alternate months
> Social/Bring-a-Box/Social etc. We decided to change to having
> Bring-a-Box meets every month in different locations. The "pub" meets
> weren't actually that popular. Contrary to popular opinion most geeks
> do have a social/real life and setting aside time to go and sit in a
> pub with other geeks isn't a priortity. Sitting in a room full of
> geeks with their computers and a high bandwidth 'net connection
> however is much more appealing! It also makes problem resolution
> easier becuase you have the added bonus of google on tap. The people
> in the LUG meet do this for free of course.
>
> > down the road locally for a coffee is another, just talking. These
>
> Are you going to do that? Makes a difference from the coffee mornings
> my wife goes to with her baby that's for sure :D
>
> > things are done in Hants LUG I know, and on the list, but it is a trek,
> > and very intermittent.
> >
>
> Intermittent? Every month, first saturday of the month for the last
> "n" years is what it has been.
>
> There's also IRC, #hants and #surrey on irc.blitzed.org is a great way
> to chat to people. (as is #lugradio on irc.freenode.org ;) ).
>
> > Windows novices have it very easy including questions answered from a
> > neighbor three doors away.
> >
>
> It's a great idea, but people who are very local have a habbit of
> asking a LOT of questions. "ooh, could you just pop round and install
> my modem?", "could you pop round and..." etc. By having a regular meet
> once a month there's a focus. The user has the chance to play for a
> maximum of a month - using all the online resources available to them
> inside and outside their LUG (website/irc/google and so on) before
> giving up and letting an "expert" look at it.
>
> > I am not sure the Infopoint list is the best place to debate the need
> > for micro-local groups. :-(
> >
>
> Oops.
>
> You might want to setup a proper mailing list on lug.org.uk rather
> than these crappy yahoo groups mailing lists (not a slur on you, but
> IMO they're shite). That way you could join the "lugmaster" mailing
> list on lug.org.uk and raise these same questions with people who care
> about these things?
>
> > However, I have no intention of competing with LUGS, or starting one,
>
> I don't think there's any level of competition between LUGs -
> especially in our area. I have a great example of that this week.
> HantsLUG have their own webserver for hosting their site. SurreyLUG
> have issues with their hosting, so HantsLUG offered some
> space/resources on their host temporarily until SurreyLUG sort
> themselves out. No competition, but collaboration and community, and
> going the other way. Take Portsmouth LUG as another example, both
> Portsmouth and Hants have reciporcal links to eachothers sites, and
> people who are members of both.
>
> > but I do expect to help with the nursery green shoots and encourage and
> > *feed into* the LUGs.
> >
>
> This may come out wrong, but, you need to do some work yourself. Don't
> expect everyone else to do it for you. They just plain wont. You want
> to get something done, do it yourself. Build it and they will come.
> Stand back and everyone stands back with you.
>
> > >  I'm not sure what support it can give that a county-wide LUG can't.
> >
> > I would like to discuss that in much greater depth because I think it is
> > crucial to what is now about to happen to linux, but this is surely not
> > the best forum?
> >
>
> How about coming along to a meet and discuss it with us in the pub
> after the meet? If I'm there I'll even buy you a pint in the spirit of
> cross-LUG community relations.
>
> Cheers,
> Al.
>