[Infopoint] Bracknell BCF event etc

[Alan Pope]

On 28/11/05, alan c <aeclist at candt.waitrose.com> wrote:
> It would be useful to list the points you know you have gained from
> experience - is this possible now?
>

Uhm. I think it might be useful to learn this stuff by reading some of
the old mails to this list [1], the InfoPoint site [2] and the
HantsLUG website [3], rather than expect people who are clearly as
busy as you do that for you.

> And the few weeks before Xmas should be one of the most busy at the
> Computer Fair. I would have been delighted if the negotiations were

Ok, so if they're really very busy, then you're going to get a lot
more people than usual see an under-prepared stand, rather than
testing out your skills on a small fair. That's not really going to
help the InfoPoint movement is it?

> already in place etc, I would be riding with them. Perhaps I can visit
> later, and take on board experience which cannot be passed via this
> group etc.
>

Sounds like you're very keen to get this InfoPoint up and running,
which is of course great.

> I do not have any doubt that you have things going well. I came to a LUG
> meeting, it was very well organised.
>

The HantsLUG meet is indeed a very well organised meet. LUG meets and
InfoPoints are very different beasts. I've been using Linux and
attending meets for some years now. However circumstances have meant
that I have not attended or helped out at any InfoPoints. Having seen
the amount of preparation that Tony and the rest of the LUG does for
one, I wouldn't *dream* of running an InfoPoint with under 2 weeks
prep having never attended one!

> However, unless the *details* of the final outcome from Jono's  earlier
> negotiations are available to me, all I can say to BCF is - what I have

What details do you want? Specifically? There's quite a bit of info in
the [1] [2] [3] websites listed below.

> said to them to date - that there 'has been an agreement in the past'.
> Which *is* a bit weak as a negotiating stance, isn't it?
>

Depends what you're trying to negotiate.

> As it is, this is somewhat breaking new ground, not totally new, but in
> some ways it is. As we know there are blurred edges about charging,

They are only blurred as a result of people running non-InfoPoint
project based infopoints. The best thing you can do is decide whether
you want to run an "official" InfoPoint in which case I'd strongly
recommend sticking to the agreements that have been made in the past,
talking to the people who've done it already, turn up to an InfoPoint
and see how it's done.

> mostly around the clarity of concept of [Infopoint vs a LUG], in
> combinations with recent [paid and unpaid] events.
>

But that's the point. You're discussing this on the "official"
InfoPoint list, which implies that you want to run an "official"
InfoPoint as set out by Jono in May last year. If you want to go
"maverick" and do a "SussexLUG" and run one then you're fine to do
that, but don't call it an InfoPoint because that's not what it is, is
it? You're running a table at a fair, doing whatever it is you plan to
do, but you're not running an InfoPoint. Ok you could argue that if it
walks like an InfoPoint and quacks like an InfoPoint then it is one,
but imagine what would happen if every LUG or user group/community
went maverick and did this. Where would that leave the Hants guys who
just plain can't afford to pay for tables? Where would that leave the
delicate relationships that others have spent their time and
considerable effort to cultivate.

> And the more organised one becomes,  the more likely it is that  I will
> be mistakenly seen as an organisation worthy of paying the way, and
> hard-headed traders will resent a freebie, as they might see it, being
> subsidised by them.
>

Indeed, and this has been discussed in the past on this list and others.

> Yes I believe you but - What Is the 'deal' *specifically*?
>

There's about 18 months worth of posts in the InfoPoint mailing list
[1] if you have a look. It's open to all.

> But,  why would I expect someone to give me a handout of (35 pounds) on
> the strength of someone I know who said someone else said they had
> agreed at some previous time. Surely the point is made?
>

This is exactly why you should not go maverick and try to negotiate
these things yourself! The work has already been done centrally. There
is no need for someone to question your intentions if you're part of
the InfoPoint project.

> Sure will, and I have. If more details of the previous agreement
> surfaces please do not heasitate to let me know?
>

As I said, the mailing list is public access.

> In addition it would be quite useful to also then know which if any BCF
> events invoked it.
>

Check the previous meeting records pages on the links below to see?

> (SCLUG, I must say I would prefer SVLUG though :-)  )
>

I have attended an SVLUG meet near Palo Alto and thoroughly enjoyed
the experience. I noted how they did things with my own eyes, and
brought back some ideas to our LUG which we have implemented. One or
two of these have contributed to the efficiency of the HantsLUG meets
you have commented on. Further illustrating the point that visiting
other peoples meets and learning how they do things from first hand
experience is very valuable.

> In this case the newbie posted it was specifically the (single) card I
> asked to be put up.

And what exactly has happened on the micro-LUG you have organised
since you set it up? Have you had any meets? Setup a website or used
any other collaborative tools? Sent out any motivational emails to the
micro-LUG recently? Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying there's
anything specifically wrong with micro-LUGs, just that they need work,
a lot of work. If you're not committed to doing that work then they
will whither and die. Same will happen for InfoPoints. The *only* and
I mean *ONLY* reason that the InfoPoints have happened in Hampshire
with the regularity and quality they have is due (in my opinion) to
the massive amount of work Tony has put in assisted by Laura, Ian,
Mark, Lisi and others. If you don't have that leadership, *and* a
great team, it (micro-LUG *and* InfoPoint) will go nowhere *fast*.

> The difference is that he will for a short period be dealing with a
> small local group, before feeling the sometimes cool breeze of people
> who take a county wide LUG for granted, and Linux too.
>

My experience of micro-LUGs is this:

  Someone decides they want a more local lug because of one, some or
none of the following reasons

  a) They want a more local meeting place because the County/City wide
LUG meet is too far away or inconvenient.
  b) They want to setup resources (website/list/whatever) that they
control and have the ability to change without consensus.
  c) Some other reason I can't think of.

  Net result.

  People post questions to the mailing list and/or forums and get no
reply because the micro-LUG doesn't have a critical mass of "experts"
who can assist.

  A lack of "members" means that there is a lack of motivation in the
"chairman" to focus on the micro-LUG so it gets neglected.

  It implodes/dies.

The problem with micro-LUGs at the moment is one of numbers. HantsLUG
has something like 200 members (if you use 'mailing list subscribers')
as a measure of membership, of which about 30 regularly post to the
mailing list, 20 or so maintain the website, and 20-30 or so come to
the meetings regularly. Obviously that's going to fluctuate throughout
the year, but roughly speaking it's about right. With a micro-LUG you
have significantly less "pool" of people to bring into the LUG, and so
proportionally those numbers go down.

> I found some of my initial contact with LUGs rather uncomfortable. And
> as you have seen by now, I need not be slow at coming forward. I should
> say that Hants LUG is very organised, active and very friendly! It is
> just a long drive away :-(
>

Indeed. I drive 50 miles or so to each HantsLUG meet I go to. I have a
2 year old daughter, a wife and a business. Everyone has their own
priorities in life.

> It is, quite intentionally. Such a group is very much a familiar
> environment to existing 'doze users. Newbies will usually be clinging to
> windoze for quite a while, and initial forays for information and
> comfort will be coming from a windoze environment.
>

What makes you think that!? We've had a number of people turn up to
the HantsLUG meet with Linux already installed, wanting some help
getting some wierd hardware working. Not everyone is a windows user
waiting to be converted. Many have already made the switch.

> I still bear the bruises of starting linux, even though it was an
> experience with many intensely joyful moments.
>

Heh. Yeah, I still get moments like that, but they're much fewer and
more far betweeen.

> Holding someones hand in a local pub could be one way. Visiting a user

We have had social meets in HantsLUG. We used to have alternate months
Social/Bring-a-Box/Social etc. We decided to change to having
Bring-a-Box meets every month in different locations. The "pub" meets
weren't actually that popular. Contrary to popular opinion most geeks
do have a social/real life and setting aside time to go and sit in a
pub with other geeks isn't a priortity. Sitting in a room full of
geeks with their computers and a high bandwidth 'net connection
however is much more appealing! It also makes problem resolution
easier becuase you have the added bonus of google on tap. The people
in the LUG meet do this for free of course.

> down the road locally for a coffee is another, just talking. These

Are you going to do that? Makes a difference from the coffee mornings
my wife goes to with her baby that's for sure :D

> things are done in Hants LUG I know, and on the list, but it is a trek,
> and very intermittent.
>

Intermittent? Every month, first saturday of the month for the last
"n" years is what it has been.

There's also IRC, #hants and #surrey on irc.blitzed.org is a great way
to chat to people. (as is #lugradio on irc.freenode.org ;) ).

> Windows novices have it very easy including questions answered from a
> neighbor three doors away.
>

It's a great idea, but people who are very local have a habbit of
asking a LOT of questions. "ooh, could you just pop round and install
my modem?", "could you pop round and..." etc. By having a regular meet
once a month there's a focus. The user has the chance to play for a
maximum of a month - using all the online resources available to them
inside and outside their LUG (website/irc/google and so on) before
giving up and letting an "expert" look at it.

> I am not sure the Infopoint list is the best place to debate the need
> for micro-local groups. :-(
>

Oops.

You might want to setup a proper mailing list on lug.org.uk rather
than these crappy yahoo groups mailing lists (not a slur on you, but
IMO they're shite). That way you could join the "lugmaster" mailing
list on lug.org.uk and raise these same questions with people who care
about these things?

> However, I have no intention of competing with LUGS, or starting one,

I don't think there's any level of competition between LUGs -
especially in our area. I have a great example of that this week.
HantsLUG have their own webserver for hosting their site. SurreyLUG
have issues with their hosting, so HantsLUG offered some
space/resources on their host temporarily until SurreyLUG sort
themselves out. No competition, but collaboration and community, and
going the other way. Take Portsmouth LUG as another example, both
Portsmouth and Hants have reciporcal links to eachothers sites, and
people who are members of both.

> but I do expect to help with the nursery green shoots and encourage and
> *feed into* the LUGs.
>

This may come out wrong, but, you need to do some work yourself. Don't
expect everyone else to do it for you. They just plain wont. You want
to get something done, do it yourself. Build it and they will come.
Stand back and everyone stands back with you.

> >  I'm not sure what support it can give that a county-wide LUG can't.
>
> I would like to discuss that in much greater depth because I think it is
> crucial to what is now about to happen to linux, but this is surely not
> the best forum?
>

How about coming along to a meet and discuss it with us in the pub
after the meet? If I'm there I'll even buy you a pint in the spirit of
cross-LUG community relations.

Cheers,
Al.