[Infopoint] Bracknell BCF event etc

[Tony Whitmore]

alan c wrote:
> Tony Whitmore wrote:
>>  It's a shame alan says he can't make it.
> 
> Yes sorry I can't.  I have seen three previous Fairs pass by mostly when
> I was doing something like leave the country for a month etc, the inlaws
> have not been well, and a family member is going to give birth soon. I
> also have other commitments, although I have significantly reduced one
> at least to make time for linux.

It's good to see you level of commitment. Things do get easier the
InfoPoints you run, certainly. The first time was the hardest. :)

> And the few weeks before Xmas should be one of the most busy at the
> Computer Fair. I would have been delighted if the negotiations were
> already in place etc, I would be riding with them.

Sure, I understand that you want to make the December fair, and that you
felt the need to go to BCF directly as a result. Whether it's essential
to have made the December fair is possibly not as certain, but what's
done is done.

> Perhaps I can visit
> later, and take on board experience which cannot be passed via this
> group etc.

You'd be welcome to do so.

> I do not have any doubt that you have things going well. I came to a LUG
> meeting, it was very well organised.

Thank you. They take a lot of organising.

>>  I didn't really mean that your negotiations would be affected by the
>>  Sussex stands, more that other InfoPoints at BCF events would be
>>  affected by your negotiations.
> 
> I appreciate that, and so far, I have received sympathetic reactions at
> BCF.
> 
> However, unless the *details* of the final outcome from Jono's  earlier
> negotiations are available to me, all I can say to BCF is - what I have
> said to them to date - that there 'has been an agreement in the past'.
> Which *is* a bit weak as a negotiating stance, isn't it?

All the details I know are in the mail I've just sent to the list
(timestamp 19:00 I suspect). Apart from that, we need Jono to fill in
the gaps. Hopefully he's reading and keeping up with this thread. I
agree it must make it difficult to negotiate when you don't know the
details, which is why I've not tried to do so myself. I was going to
wait until I knew whose name to use wrt the original agreement and what
Jono agreed with them.

> As it is, this is somewhat breaking new ground, not totally new, but in
> some ways it is. As we know there are blurred edges about charging,
> mostly around the clarity of concept of [Infopoint vs a LUG], in
> combinations with recent [paid and unpaid] events.

It was clear enough with the original agreement and there was no
blurriness. Which again is why I wanted to have all the details from
Jono before I approached BCF, in case it turned into a horrible mess.

> And the more organised one becomes,  the more likely it is that  I will
> be mistakenly seen as an organisation worthy of paying the way, and
> hard-headed traders will resent a freebie, as they might see it, being
> subsidised by them.

They're only likely to resent you being there for nothing if you are
taking trade away from them. We made a point of introducing ourselves to
the other traders when we started and explaining what we were doing. Our
signs say we are non-profit making and even if we had a more
professional looking stand I don't think it would make people resent us.

The above point about taking away trade is why I say there's a greater
possibility for resentment from LUGs who pay for stands against
InfoPoints that don't. It's why I'll only run InfoPoints in Hampshire.
We're Hampshire LUG, so the only people's toes we tread on will be our
own. ;)

>>  I'm sure Jono was clear about the aims
>>  and objectives of the InfoPoint project in his initial negotations
>>  and was able to secure the free tables deal.
> 
> Yes I believe you but - What Is the 'deal' *specifically*?

I've given all this information in my mail of 19:00. You know all I know
now. We'll have to wait for Jono to fill in any other information.

>>  Whilst there's no reason
>>  that you shouldn't be as clear,
> 
> I am clear if you are.

I'm not sure I understand this. My meaning was there's no reason why you
can't make the aims and the philosophical objectives of the InfoPoint
project (as laid out on the wiki) clear to BCF when you are negotiating
with them. But I don't know you well enough to be certain of that.

I know that Jono would have done during his original negotiations, and I
suspect this is why BCF were receptive to the original deal.

> But,  why would I expect someone to give me a handout of (35 pounds) on
> the strength of someone I know who said someone else said they had
> agreed at some previous time. Surely the point is made?

Well, it's not a handout. What you're basically asking for is an empty
table that would otherwise be unused. If the organiser is resigned to
not getting a trader for the table, giving it away to an InfoPoint is no
loss to them and even an advantage. InfoPoints help bring a touch of
variety to a fair and look much better than having an empty table.

>>  it's always possible.
> 
> not with me, but I lack *evidence* that is not heresay.

You and me both.

>>  I'm sure you'll
>>  proceed with care though.
> 
> Sure will, and I have. If more details of the previous agreement
> surfaces please do not heasitate to let me know?

Well, as mentioned, everything I know is in the mail of 19:00 today.
Jono will have to supply any additional information.

> In addition it would be quite useful to also then know which if any BCF
> events invoked it.

*As far as I know* (and I could be wrong) we are the only group that
tried to line up an InfoPoint at a BCF event, but it got called off when
they were unable to confirm the availability of a table more than a
couple of days in advance.

>>  There's no saying that an advert for SVLUG
> 
> (SCLUG, I must say I would prefer SVLUG though :-)  )

Ah, yeah. Bah. :)

>>  or HantsLUG wouldn't have
>>  brought the same result.
> 
> In this case the newbie posted it was specifically the (single) card I
> asked to be put up.
> Is that what you mean?

Umm, not sure I understand. My point was that if you'd advertised SCLUG
at the local colleges with your posters instead of the micro-LUG then
perhaps SCLUG would be a busier place. If you find SCLUG inadequate in
some way, I'd suggest putting your energies into changing it. Stand for
election to an office. or organise whatever it is you feel needs doing.

In general terms, not specifically to with your group, I find it a bit
frustrating when someone starts a micro-LUG. They duplicate a lot of
effort that has already been done in a county-wide LUG. That person's
effort could be better injected more productively into the county-wide
LUG to help that change and develop new projects. Big LUGs are only as
organised as they are because people give up their spare time to do it.
We have a number of people who help out with Hants in a variety of ways.
But I would *love* to gain some time back from the effort I put into the
LUG because someone volunteered to take over some aspect because they
wanted to maintain or improve it. I have to be prepared to do anything
that needs doing myself until that happens though.

Also, smaller groups hinge on that person being around to give it life.
If that person goes away, so does the support for newbies, bascially.

> The difference is that he will for a short period be dealing with a
> small local group, before feeling the sometimes cool breeze of people
> who take a county wide LUG for granted, and Linux too.
> 
> I found some of my initial contact with LUGs rather uncomfortable. And
> as you have seen by now, I need not be slow at coming forward. I should
> say that Hants LUG is very organised, active and very friendly! It is
> just a long drive away :-(

It's about 17 miles to our new "north Hants" venue from Bracknell, about
25 to our hold one. We also have people who regularly come from the
Bracknell area to LUG meetings in Southampton. Different people cope
with driving longer distances in different ways, but hopefully the
"northern" venues are close enough for you.

>>  Supporting SVLUG with promotion might help
>>  it grow - you've already said that's it's differently active. If I'm
>>  right in thinking that micro-lug is essentially just a yahoo group,
> 
> It is, quite intentionally. Such a group is very much a familiar
> environment to existing 'doze users. Newbies will usually be clinging to
> windoze for quite a while, and initial forays for information and
> comfort will be coming from a windoze environment.

One thing I've never come across is a "WUG", micro or otherwise.

> I believe that many linux users soon loose newbie memories - of the
> totally lost feeling when things do not work and they have done
> everything they know and the rtfm too, and still do not really know what
> question to ask in a group.

It's something that we're very aware of in Hants. People are often
encouraged to learn how to help themselves, but no-one is ever told to
go away and RTFM. I can think of one particular newbie on the list who
has recently shown his knowledge increasing from "I'm looking for some
software to do X" to compiling stuff.

> Holding someones hand in a local pub could be one way. Visiting a user
> down the road locally for a coffee is another, just talking. These
> things are done in Hants LUG I know, and on the list, but it is a trek,
> and very intermittent.

Perhaps SCLUG meetings would be a better bet if HantsLUG meetings are
too far away? Our meetings are once a month but we offer support through
our IRC channel, wiki and mailing list all the time. And there is a
social aspect to our meetings too: People sit around and chat about
Linux and non-computing related topics. We ensure people are welcomed
into the meeting and get talking to someone.

> Windows novices have it very easy including questions answered from a
> neighbor three doors away.

Possibly, but this stops them getting involved in any wider community -
and I don't think one even exists for Windows users.

> I am not sure the Infopoint list is the best place to debate the need
> for micro-local groups. :-(

It's not so far off-topic. It's about supporting and introducing new
users to Linux - so it's definitely InfoPoint territory.

> However, I have no intention of competing with LUGS, or starting one,
> but I do expect to help with the nursery green shoots and encourage and
> *feed into* the LUGs.

It's an admirable effort.

>>  The thing that sometimes puts people off LUGs is the amount of
>>  traffic, and even this varies from LUG to LUG.
> 
> yes I am sure it is one thing

There are ways of dealing with that - digest mode for example, or the
delete key. It's one possible argument for using web forums though -
it's easier to ignore threads that hold no interest.

Tony
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: signature.asc
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 256 bytes
Desc: OpenPGP digital signature
Url : http://mailman.lug.org.uk/pipermail/infopoint/attachments/20051129/942e5329/signature-0001.bin