[Infopoint] Bracknell BCF event etc

[alan c]

Tony Whitmore wrote:
 > alan c wrote:

[...]

> > However, unless the *details* of the final outcome from Jono's
> > earlier negotiations are available to me, all I can say to BCF is -
> > what I have said to them to date - that there 'has been an
> > agreement in the past'. Which *is* a bit weak as a negotiating
> > stance, isn't it?
>
>  All the details I know are in the mail I've just sent to the list
>  (timestamp 19:00 I suspect). Apart from that, we need Jono to fill in
>  the gaps. Hopefully he's reading and keeping up with this thread. I
>  agree it must make it difficult to negotiate when you don't know the
>  details, which is why I've not tried to do so myself. I was going to
>  wait until I knew whose name to use wrt the original agreement and
>  what Jono agreed with them.

Understood, and thanks. I guessed that if I was too busy to not only 
plough through every record there might be, find more, and wait fo 
rother records and opinions, and too busy almost to read a jono article 
recently fully, then he might easily be too busy to meet an arbitrary 
timescale of mine(!)  :-)

Anyway, if I had not had an apparently friendly and sympathetic 
reception on the sunday morning (!) phone to BCF I would have drawn back 
and thought it best to wait anyway. Then probably focussed on to a 
diferent venue in bracknell.

[...]

>  It was clear enough with the original agreement and there was no
>  blurriness. Which again is why I wanted to have all the details from
>  Jono before I approached BCF, in case it turned into a horrible mess.

very understandable.

[...]
>  doing. Our signs say we are non-profit making and even if we had a
>  more professional looking stand I don't think it would make people
>  resent us.
>
>  The above point about taking away trade is why I say there's a
>  greater possibility for resentment from LUGs who pay for stands
>  against InfoPoints that don't. It's why I'll only run InfoPoints in
>  Hampshire. We're Hampshire LUG, so the only people's toes we tread on
>  will be our own. ;)

SCLUG has meetings and an occasional (and really good) install day, but 
is not currently strong on advocacy.
I have had two individual responses from the sclug list.

[...]

> > Yes I believe you but - What Is the 'deal' *specifically*?
>
>  I've given all this information in my mail of 19:00. You know all I
>  know now. We'll have to wait for Jono to fill in any other
>  information.

Thanks, appreciated. If it all works out without waiting, all to the 
good, he looks like a busy guy.

( BTW the reason why I did not faithfully wade through each and every 
part of the archive recently was that every single action I took 
hresulted in about a half minute wait, it was around teh time you later 
said there were server problems, perhaps it was that. It woul dall hav 
etaken an immense time and delay particularly if th einformation had to 
be distilled out and then summarised, and the summary then formalised 
and taken back to BCF or whoever. )




>
> >> Whilst there's no reason that you shouldn't be as clear,
> > I am clear if you are.
>
>  I'm not sure I understand this.

(intended to mean I do not doubt you)

>  My meaning was there's no reason why
>  you can't make the aims and the philosophical objectives of the
>  InfoPoint project (as laid out on the wiki) clear to BCF when you are
>  negotiating with them. But I don't know you well enough to be certain
>  of that.

I see. I did that in effect, without being formal though, it seemed to 
be ok.

We are getting to know each other a bit.

[...]

>  Well, it's not a handout. What you're basically asking for is an
>  empty table that would otherwise be unused. If the organiser is
>  resigned to not getting a trader for the table, giving it away to an
>  InfoPoint is no loss to them and even an advantage. InfoPoints help
>  bring a touch of variety to a fair and look much better than having
>  an empty table.

yes I would guess that, but strangely, this has not (yet) been voiced.

>
> >> it's always possible.
> > not with me, but I lack *evidence* that is not heresay.
>
>  You and me both.
>
> >> I'm sure you'll proceed with care though.
> > Sure will, and I have. If more details of the previous agreement
> > surfaces please do not heasitate to let me know?
>
>  Well, as mentioned, everything I know is in the mail of 19:00 today.
>  Jono will have to supply any additional information.

(if he gets as far as -this- into the threads he is doing really well)

> > In addition it would be quite useful to also then know which if any
> > BCF events invoked it.
>
>  *As far as I know* (and I could be wrong) we are the only group that
>  tried to line up an InfoPoint at a BCF event, but it got called off
>  when they were unable to confirm the availability of a table more
>  than a couple of days in advance.

mmm. So bracknell is possibly the initial happening. I see more clearly 
why my unseemly haste has brought such a flurry.  Again, apologies all. 
Now my communications are more sorted I can be beter synchronised. And 
hopefully things will quieten down after xmas for a while (?)

[...]

>  ............ My point was that if you'd advertised
>  SCLUG at the local colleges with your posters instead of the
>  micro-LUG then perhaps SCLUG would be a busier place. If you find
>  SCLUG inadequate in some way, I'd suggest putting your energies into
>  changing it. Stand for election to an office. or organise whatever it
>  is you feel needs doing.

I have -----  stood for local political election, set up & run an age 
concern internet 'cafe', & been a keynote speaker at a MS campus hosted 
silversurfurs day, participated in a local radio phone in about 
computers, and a few more things.... my energies go into what can yield 
best and appropriat benefits currently according to opportunity, which 
sometimes is best 'grasped'.

I regret I do not believe that as a single handed newbie I can 
sufficiently influence an established LUG in a short time, and it would 
mean using time and travel effort that I cannot allocate.

What my own personal experience has shown me is that
1) linux is changing just now at breakneck speed, becoming very user 
friendly for jo public. Now is a good time to spread the word.
2) as a newbie, I really missed a very local contact, friend, mentor, 
whatever. I did have retail support from novell, I was an experienced 
user of usenet, but there was still a very significant gap. It does not 
take very much in email for a newbie to feel really inadequate, 
particularly when ignorance is being declared. It can hardly be expected 
as different, after all, it is not everyone who is cut out to be an 
angel of understanding and patience.
3) the LUGs exist for the existing members, and their motives are not 
necessarily support of windows refugees. Some have hardly used 'doze.
4) my neighbours, family, friends, retail contacts, (you name it, 
everyone) uses windows, not linux.
If *I* feel isolated and sometimes lost and struggling, then I can be 
very sure that others less capable certainly will. any LUG contacts etc 
have been via email, or in a large group. Part of the issue about 
starting linux is the culture shock, which includes the lack of a retail 
marketing hype -retail therapy in a way. To have even a small local 
element of support is I believe *very*  significant.
Particularly for ordinary, non technical people.

It does sound as if your experience at the Fairs is in many ways what I 
would call having some micro local group functions. It is focussed on 
newcomers, and fosters beginners. In my (perhaps single handed) case, if 
necessary, the yahoogroup can act as a holding area - because I cannot 
cope with the volume of interest (?) -  partly supported by specially 
patient (some LUG) members, to encourage and allow confidence, pending 
the newcomer's moves to wider support networks - LUG, usenet etc.

Whether the local card is played via friends, family retail shops, 
computer fairs, college evening classes, or wherever, I am convinced it 
is very important, particularly now and next year. Whatever it is 
called, it is not an immediate part of the county wide LUG structure as 
it presently exists, as I have seen it.

BTW a Hants member has a similar approach (adam I think). He has started 
a  local village group via a parish magazine in the Basingstoke area.

I find it a bit strange that some opinions gave me the impressions that 
if an org is not a normal part of an esatblished LUG, somehow it ought 
to be.  As linux becomes much more popular, and I think it will, then 
the existing LUG structure will seem a bit limited. Unless LUGs have an 
age concern and womens institute section, which they may do.

>  In general terms, not specifically to with your group, I find it a
>  bit frustrating when someone starts a micro-LUG. They duplicate a lot
>  of effort that has already been done in a county-wide LUG.

In my case I am not duplicating anything. I can walk in 10 minutes to 
almost any likely newcomer. LUGs cannot usually do that. Counties are - big.

It is just like the friend down the road who helps someone with their 
(windows) PC.

>  That
>  person's effort could be better injected more productively into the
>  county-wide LUG to help that change and develop new projects.

I can attend meetings forever, and get nowhere. So can most people. The 
LUG is not broke, whay should I try and fix it? If it wants to adopt a 
good idea, it will. If it is not a good idea, it will go away. Sounds a 
bit like open source.

>Big
>  LUGs are only as organised as they are because people give up their
>  spare time to do it. We have a number of people who help out with
>  Hants in a variety of ways.

I suggest that the more the 'organisation' shows, then the more that 
people will be reticent to volunteer to do things someone elses way, 
apart from a few types, who like to do that. The big groups are the most 
problematic I think.

Look at some of the pessimistic comments my activity has attracted in 
this (various) thread. If I was in a sensitve mood I would lose the will 
- well not to live - but loose the will to be bothered to do something. 
Part of the difficulty is remoteness and lack of personal contact - you 
alluded that above I think - not knowing me for example. I run a large 
uk medical support group (yahoo) and it is 99.5% online. Very few 
activists, no personal contact. I run a local volunteeer group for age 
concern berks (ukonline centre) and volunteers flood out of the woodwork 
- enough for continuing one-to-one help for novices, 15 per day, a day a 
week, for two years and more. There is lot of personal contact.
This is where a local group, local contact call it anything, is useful.

When linux use increases, this will cease to be relevant.

>  But I would *love* to gain some time back
>  from the effort I put into the LUG because someone volunteered to
>  take over some aspect because they wanted to maintain or improve it.
>  I have to be prepared to do anything that needs doing myself until
>  that happens though.

What happens when you are ill. I go on holiday for a month, have long 
weekends etc. Organisations I have set up in recent years are prompted 
to run without me, and they do.

>  Also, smaller groups hinge on that person being around to give it
>  life. If that person goes away, so does the support for newbies,
>  bascially.

True at the beginning. However, most members in bracklux initally ar ein 
fact sypathetic LUG members who ar ether to encourage and help out. The 
very local nature means I find it very convemient, and can fit many 
things into what I do normallly.

It is not aimead as being 'support' it is aimed as being a local contact 
group. A slight difference. Support may and will happen, but unless it 
is novice level it will quickly get channeled to the LUGs and etc, still 
with local encouragement. and contact.

[...]

>  It's about 17 miles to our new "north Hants" venue from Bracknell,
>  about 25 to our hold one.

Not too bad if needed. I may see you there before long. It is not likely 
to be every meeting though.
As far as (SCLUG in) Reading and may be a pleasant venue.

I walk into and around bracknell several times a week.

>  We also have people who regularly come from
>  the Bracknell area to LUG meetings in Southampton.

I came to one not long ago.

>  Different people
>  cope with driving longer distances in different ways, but hopefully
>  the "northern" venues are close enough for you.

I used to live  by driving around the M25, and now spend a lot of time 
driving a motorhome around Europe, driving is not the problem istelf. It 
takes time, and some money, and there is the need for parking. It is 
just an extra hassle in life which conspires to offer a hurdle in 
starting and continuing linux.

[...]

>  One thing I've never come across is a "WUG", micro or otherwise.

My neighbours, friends, workmates (when I worked), the IT section, 
newspapers, most magazines, family, you name it, they are *all* part of 
WUG. And what is more there is a multi million pound industry marketing 
correct thinking out there too. We are surrounded by a very big and 
pervading WUG.

> > I believe that many linux users soon loose newbie memories - of the
> > totally lost feeling when things do not work and they have done
> > everything they know and the rtfm too, and still do not really know
> > what question to ask in a group.
>
>  It's something that we're very aware of in Hants.

Yes it showed, good for you.

[...]

>  Perhaps SCLUG meetings would be a better bet if HantsLUG meetings are
>  too far away? Our meetings are once a month but we offer support
>  through our IRC channel, wiki and mailing list all the time. And
>  there is a social aspect to our meetings too: People sit around and
>  chat about Linux and non-computing related topics. We ensure people
>  are welcomed into the meeting and get talking to someone.

you do it very well yes, if I was closer I would be a regular and a 
participant.

It takes time to make use of once per month of course, without being 
local the personal contact possibility is difficult. It may mean that 
for 29 days in a month people you meet and talk to think you are nuts, 
and one day per month, it is great.

>
> > Windows novices have it very easy including questions answered from
> > a neighbor three doors away.
>
>  Possibly, but this stops them getting involved in any wider community
>  - and I don't think one even exists for Windows users.

(comments above)
Many ordinary users have no interest about which OS they use, it is the 
same as everyone elses, that is comforting. But when they get trouble 
they begin to wionder, but there is apparently no alternative, according 
to the (local) word on the street that is.

> > I am not sure the Infopoint list is the best place to debate the
> > need for micro-local groups. :-(
>
>  It's not so far off-topic. It's about supporting and introducing new
>  users to Linux - so it's definitely InfoPoint territory.

> > However, I have no intention of competing with LUGS, or starting
> > one, but I do expect to help with the nursery green shoots and
> > encourage and *feed into* the LUGs.
>
>  It's an admirable effort.

Thanks

best regards
alan c