[Infopoint] Bracknell BCF event etc

[Alan Pope]

On 30/11/05, alan c <aeclist at candt.waitrose.com> wrote:
> Understood, and thanks. I guessed that if I was too busy to not only
> plough through every record there might be, find more, and wait fo
> rother records and opinions, and too busy almost to read a jono article
> recently fully, then he might easily be too busy to meet an arbitrary
> timescale of mine(!)  :-)
>

I think that's what we've been getting at in this thread.

> SCLUG has meetings and an occasional (and really good) install day, but
> is not currently strong on advocacy.
> I have had two individual responses from the sclug list.
>

Excellent! Vict^H^H^Holunteers!

> ( BTW the reason why I did not faithfully wade through each and every
> part of the archive recently was that every single action I took
> hresulted in about a half minute wait, it was around teh time you later
> said there were server problems, perhaps it was that. It woul dall hav
> etaken an immense time and delay particularly if th einformation had to
> be distilled out and then summarised, and the summary then formalised
> and taken back to BCF or whoever. )
>

The mailing list is indeed hosted on a box that has "issues" which are
being worked on. However the infopoint website and the hantslug
website also have useful information (links in previous email) -
neither of those are poorly performing.

> (if he gets as far as -this- into the threads he is doing really well)
>

You could always mail Jono or Kat directly with a more brief mail
summarising your questions?

> mmm. So bracknell is possibly the initial happening. I see more clearly
> why my unseemly haste has brought such a flurry.  Again, apologies all.
> Now my communications are more sorted I can be beter synchronised. And
> hopefully things will quieten down after xmas for a while (?)
>

What exactly do you mean by that? "things will quieten down". Is that
a reference to your personal circumstances, a reduction in attendance
at infopoints or what?

> I have -----  stood for local political election, set up & run an age
> concern internet 'cafe', & been a keynote speaker at a MS campus hosted
> silversurfurs day, participated in a local radio phone in about
> computers, and a few more things.... my energies go into what can yield
> best and appropriat benefits currently according to opportunity, which
> sometimes is best 'grasped'.
>

You clearly have a lot of time on your hands.

> I regret I do not believe that as a single handed newbie I can
> sufficiently influence an established LUG in a short time, and it would
> mean using time and travel effort that I cannot allocate.
>

So is it really worth you getting half involved if you can't dedicate
the time? Surely the Bracknell area would benefit more greatly from a
regularlly run, well planned, well staffed InfoPoint than a poorly
planned, badly executed, poorly staffed one?

Or maybe other areas could benefit from a greater staffing level, or
more help in planning?

> What my own personal experience has shown me is that
> 1) linux is changing just now at breakneck speed, becoming very user
> friendly for jo public. Now is a good time to spread the word.

Well, some of us have been saying this for some time. To have someone
come along and click their fingers "come on, tell me now, quick quick
I have an InfoPoint to run, *click* *click*" is somewhat irritating.
To tell us what needs to be done does kinda jab in the side of those
of us who have been putting in some effort for some time.

> 2) as a newbie, I really missed a very local contact, friend, mentor,
> whatever. I did have retail support from novell, I was an experienced
> user of usenet, but there was still a very significant gap. It does not
> take very much in email for a newbie to feel really inadequate,
> particularly when ignorance is being declared. It can hardly be expected
> as different, after all, it is not everyone who is cut out to be an
> angel of understanding and patience.

But you *have* a local support group. The SCLUG meets, the HantsLUG
meets the SurreyLUG meets are all not *that* far away. Many other
people make it to the meets with their PC, what you're essentially
asking is for people to put in more commitment than they already do,
to service a smaller community in a more localised area. That to me
doesn't make sense when there's already 3 LUGs near to you that do all
that over a wider area.

> 3) the LUGs exist for the existing members, and their motives are not
> necessarily support of windows refugees. Some have hardly used 'doze.

Rubbish. LUGs do not exist for the existing members. They each have
their own motives, granted, but to say that they are some kind of self
serving clique that doesn't have any remit for non-members is just
poppycock! At the HantsLUG meet we have a reception desk, where new
people get to say "hello" to someone, they get a badge printed and get
asked why they are here. The person on reception then usually
recommends people in the group who might be able to help out with the
specific problem. That's been my experience anyway.

> 4) my neighbours, family, friends, retail contacts, (you name it,
> everyone) uses windows, not linux.

My neighbour uses Solaris, my brother uses Linux. I suspect the rest
of my social circle mainly use Windows though, yes. They'll learn
though.

> If *I* feel isolated and sometimes lost and struggling, then I can be
> very sure that others less capable certainly will. any LUG contacts etc
> have been via email, or in a large group. Part of the issue about
> starting linux is the culture shock, which includes the lack of a retail
> marketing hype -retail therapy in a way. To have even a small local
> element of support is I believe *very*  significant.
> Particularly for ordinary, non technical people.
>

There is nothing in there that can't be achieved with a "standard
size" county LUG. People just need to be less damn lazy, and put in a
bit of effort when they learn Linux. With windows they are spoon fed
everything and it turns them into gibbering idiots who don't know spam
from spyware and antivirus from adaware.

> It does sound as if your experience at the Fairs is in many ways what I
> would call having some micro local group functions. It is focussed on

No, they're InfoPoints. It just so happens that we have tied the LUG
to the InfoPoint project. Fact is anyone can run an InfoPoint, you
don't need to be a LUG, county-LUG or micro-LUG. It's just that a LUG
is one of the best placed organisations to run an InfoPoint. So long
as it has a source of people who are willing to organise and help out
of course.

> newcomers, and fosters beginners. In my (perhaps single handed) case, if

But are you a micro-LUG? What consititues a micro-LUG? Have you had
any meets? Have you actually sent any mails to your yahoogroups list?
I can only see mails from you saying "welcome" and "I'm off on
holiday". A LUG of any size needs more organising than that.

> necessary, the yahoogroup can act as a holding area - because I cannot
> cope with the volume of interest (?) -  partly supported by specially

The volume of interest!? Your yahoogroup has 10 members. One is me and
one is you. That makes 8. If you can't cope with that volume, then you
may need some more help in running your micro-LUG!

> patient (some LUG) members, to encourage and allow confidence, pending
> the newcomer's moves to wider support networks - LUG, usenet etc.
>

But you haven't actually done any of that though have you?

> Whether the local card is played via friends, family retail shops,
> computer fairs, college evening classes, or wherever, I am convinced it
> is very important, particularly now and next year. Whatever it is
> called, it is not an immediate part of the county wide LUG structure as
> it presently exists, as I have seen it.
>

You've been to one LUG meet of one LUG. You can't possibly be in a
position to judge from that.

> BTW a Hants member has a similar approach (adam I think). He has started
> a  local village group via a parish magazine in the Basingstoke area.
>

Adam Trickett, yes. Have you spoken to him to see how he got on? Maybe
you could visit, as it's not that far from Bracknell.

> I find it a bit strange that some opinions gave me the impressions that
> if an org is not a normal part of an esatblished LUG, somehow it ought
> to be.  As linux becomes much more popular, and I think it will, then
> the existing LUG structure will seem a bit limited. Unless LUGs have an
> age concern and womens institute section, which they may do.
>

Why not use the existing structure though. HantsLUG has already
branched out into InfoPoints. We also help out at a local charity
where we can. Providing support to specific groups is not out of the
question for a LUG. In fact I'd say a county-LUG is even better at
that than a micro-LUG. It comes back to the critical mass issue. If
you only have 10 people in your micro-LUG then you've got a
significantly smaller pool of expertise to draw on than a county-LUG.

> In my case I am not duplicating anything.

I disagree. You're going through all the effort of setting up a
meeting. Tony has had to spend quite a considerable amount of time
replying to your lengthy emails. If you just turned up to an InfoPoin
you could see for yourself what is needed!

> I can walk in 10 minutes to
> almost any likely newcomer. LUGs cannot usually do that. Counties are - big.
>

Maybe you can, but *will* you? What happens when you're on holiday?
Who does house-calls then?

> >  That
> >  person's effort could be better injected more productively into the
> >  county-wide LUG to help that change and develop new projects.
>
> I can attend meetings forever, and get nowhere. So can most people. The

What do you mean by that? What do you intend doing at the meeting? Sit
on your hands and stare at the wall? Get *involved*. Do *something*.

> LUG is not broke, whay should I try and fix it? If it wants to adopt a
> good idea, it will. If it is not a good idea, it will go away. Sounds a
> bit like open source.
>

But you haven't actually tried have you? How do you know that local
support in a county-LUG wouldn't work? It takes more than one email a
month then going on holiday for a month to generate enthusiasm for
your ideas.

> I suggest that the more the 'organisation' shows, then the more that
> people will be reticent to volunteer to do things someone elses way,
> apart from a few types, who like to do that. The big groups are the most
> problematic I think.
>

We do sometimes have difficulty getting volunteers, yes. It's
generally speaking a core of 10-20 people who do most of the "work" in
the HantsLUG. Your yahoogroup is currently running at 10 people. Do
you think that the same proportion of people (5%) would be willing to
help  or do you think that the same number would help? You think all
10 people in a micro-LUG would be available at the click of your
fingers?

> Look at some of the pessimistic comments my activity has attracted in
> this (various) thread. If I was in a sensitve mood I would lose the will
> - well not to live - but loose the will to be bothered to do something.

But you appear not to have listened to what the people who have been
doing this for *some* *time* have been telling you! It's not that
people don't want you to run an InfoPoint, just be more prepared, and
get involved, rather than go off half-cocked.

> Part of the difficulty is remoteness and lack of personal contact - you
> alluded that above I think - not knowing me for example. I run a large
> uk medical support group (yahoo) and it is 99.5% online.

I personally don't think that's the same as a Linux support group.
Medical support groups are there to support people. They generally
don't go round giving medical advice or making changes to someones
core functions as brain surgery is somewhat beyond their scope. Linux
support groups are there to support people but can also talk though
and even provide hands-on technical support to resolve issues.

> What happens when you are ill. I go on holiday for a month, have long
> weekends etc. Organisations I have set up in recent years are prompted
> to run without me, and they do.
>

The LUG continues to function when Tony is ill or away. If he was
unavailable for some reason he need just mail the LUG mailing list and
people will step up. The whole system doesn't fall apart (sorry Tony).

> True at the beginning. However, most members in bracklux initally ar ein
> fact sypathetic LUG members who ar ether to encourage and help out. The

But again, bracklux has only 10 members and only 9 emails have passed
over the list since it started.

> very local nature means I find it very convemient, and can fit many
> things into what I do normallly.
>

So the whole reason for bracklux and your intention to run an
InfoPoint is for this to be convenient for you? How, um, convenient.

> It is not aimead as being 'support' it is aimed as being a local contact
> group. A slight difference. Support may and will happen, but unless it
> is novice level it will quickly get channeled to the LUGs and etc, still
> with local encouragement. and contact.
>

I just don't see the point. Rather than have you in the "way" why
don't people just contact the LUG directly. They they'll likely get
their answer quicker (more eyeballs - less people on holiday) and have
more variety of solutions (different people looking at it in different
ways).

> I used to live  by driving around the M25, and now spend a lot of time
> driving a motorhome around Europe, driving is not the problem istelf. It
> takes time, and some money, and there is the need for parking. It is
> just an extra hassle in life which conspires to offer a hurdle in
> starting and continuing linux.
>

We have never had to pay for parking at any venue we've had a LUG meeting at.

There are often "calls for lifts" on the mailing list whereby people
ask for or offer lifts to others in the group.

> My neighbours, friends, workmates (when I worked), the IT section,
> newspapers, most magazines, family, you name it, they are *all* part of
> WUG.

Rubbish. They're a bunch of disparate individuals all trying to work
things out the best they can on their own.

Most LUGs are communities of people striving to help and support Linux
Users for free.

There is NOTHING like that in the windows world. There is "bloke down
the pub", "that bloke down the road", "that bloke at work" who "know
stuff about this", but nothing like the community that LUGs present.

Cheers,
Al.