[Infopoint] Bracknell BCF event etc

[Tony Whitmore]

alan c wrote:

> SCLUG has meetings and an occasional (and really good) install day, but
> is not currently strong on advocacy.

They probably just need someone to lead the way. From my experience of
running a LUG I know that a new idea needs someone to lead it. Our wiki
was an example - one had been proposed before but no-one had actually
set one up. I did and it soon grew to what it is now. The point it is
took someone to step up and do it, not just suggest it and leave it to
others - there was neither the time nor inclination in the LUG
"hierarchy" at that time.

And yes, I was a newbie to Linux (relatively) and even more of a newbie
to the LUG, so I don't think you have to be an "old hand" to make an impact.

> I have had two individual responses from the sclug list.

Excellent. That's a base on which you can build. Try to make the event
as rewarding for them as it is for those who visit the stand. Unless
they are as motivated as you, the novelty will wear off.

>>  My meaning was there's no reason why
>>  you can't make the aims and the philosophical objectives of the
>>  InfoPoint project (as laid out on the wiki) clear to BCF when you are
>>  negotiating with them. But I don't know you well enough to be certain
>>  of that.
> 
> I see. I did that in effect, without being formal though, it seemed to
> be ok.

Good, good. I think the aims of InfoPoints are important to fair organisers.

> We are getting to know each other a bit.

Indeed. I should have inserted a "yet" into my final sentence above. :)

>>  Well, it's not a handout. What you're basically asking for is an
>>  empty table that would otherwise be unused. If the organiser is
>>  resigned to not getting a trader for the table, giving it away to an
>>  InfoPoint is no loss to them and even an advantage. InfoPoints help
>>  bring a touch of variety to a fair and look much better than having
>>  an empty table.
> 
> yes I would guess that, but strangely, this has not (yet) been voiced.

It would be worth mentioning yourself when you talk to them. I'm sure
they'll have thought of it, but it won't do any harm to make sure. :)

>> > In addition it would be quite useful to also then know which if any
>> > BCF events invoked it.
>>
>>  *As far as I know* (and I could be wrong) we are the only group that
>>  tried to line up an InfoPoint at a BCF event, but it got called off
>>  when they were unable to confirm the availability of a table more
>>  than a couple of days in advance.
> 
> 
> mmm. So bracknell is possibly the initial happening.

Yup.

> I see more clearly
> why my unseemly haste has brought such a flurry.  Again, apologies all.

Well, as I've said, my concern is bascially to not spoil our
relationship with BCF, such as it is. I know that wouldn't be your
intention. But I think we're covering old ground.

> Now my communications are more sorted I can be beter synchronised. And
> hopefully things will quieten down after xmas for a while (?)

Well, I hope you'll keep the list informed of your negotiations with BCF
and how the fair goes if you attend. Assuming everything goes well with
BCF, we can also decide who is going to be the official contact with BCF.

>>  If you find
>>  SCLUG inadequate in some way, I'd suggest putting your energies into
>>  changing it. Stand for election to an office. or organise whatever it
>>  is you feel needs doing.
> 
> I have -----  stood for local political election, set up & run an age
> concern internet 'cafe', & been a keynote speaker at a MS campus hosted
> silversurfurs day, participated in a local radio phone in about
> computers, and a few more things.... my energies go into what can yield
> best and appropriat benefits currently according to opportunity, which
> sometimes is best 'grasped'.

Well, you clearly have a lot of energy. My point above was that some of
that energy could be used to improve SCLUG so that the whole of the
region could benefit from the improvements, rather than just a small
area. I don't know if SCLUG have a formal electoral structure, but I'm
sure that volunteering your efforts would be welcomed.

> I regret I do not believe that as a single handed newbie I can
> sufficiently influence an established LUG 

I bet you could. I did.

> in a short time,

Why the hurry on time?

> and it would
> mean using time and travel effort that I cannot allocate.

Surely the LUG business is conducted on their Mailing List? That's where
most of the action in Hants takes place. It's also where all important
points are aired and debated. We have regular contributors to the LUG
who haven't ever made a meeting, but that doesn't stop them from being
involved in the LUG.

> What my own personal experience has shown me is that
> 1) linux is changing just now at breakneck speed, becoming very user
> friendly for jo public. Now is a good time to spread the word.

I agree. And Ubuntu / Canonical are particularly supportive of community
efforts to do so.

> 2) as a newbie, I really missed a very local contact, friend, mentor,
> whatever. I did have retail support from novell, I was an experienced
> user of usenet, but there was still a very significant gap. It does not
> take very much in email for a newbie to feel really inadequate,
> particularly when ignorance is being declared. It can hardly be expected
> as different, after all, it is not everyone who is cut out to be an
> angel of understanding and patience.

It sounds more like you needed a consultant or on-site support contract.
If you feel you need that level of guidance (and the facilities offered
by a LUG aren't enough) then you're probably looking at pay for it.
Someone is very unlikely to spend hours of their free time teaching you
Linux for nothing.

> 3) the LUGs exist for the existing members, and their motives are not
> necessarily support of windows refugees. 

Perhaps only in the most literal sense do they exist for the existing
members. Certainly you have to be involved with a LUG to influence it.
But most LUGs would look to actively expand their membership and welome
new people in.

>From our constitution:

The purpose of HantsLUG shall be:
      a) the mutual support of Members of the group (primarily in the
county of Hampshire) in acquiring knowledge and expertise in the use of
the GNU/Linux Operating System,
      b) to provide support and encouragement to newcomers to the
GNU/Linux Operating System, and
      c) to promote the use of the GNU/Linux Operating System.

If you feel that LUGs (as a general term) do not support Windows
refugees, then you've had very different experiences from my time in
HantsLUG.

> Some have hardly used 'doze.

Well, it'll vary from LUG to LUG. There are plenty of "Windows refugees"
on the list. In fact, the vast majority of our list members have either
used Windows in the past, dual-boot, have home networks with PCs running
Windows, continue to use Windows at work, run large Windows networks
with Linux services or program for Windows.

> 4) my neighbours, family, friends, retail contacts, (you name it,
> everyone) uses windows, not linux.

I bet there are plenty of people around you who use stuff other than
Windows, you just don't know about it. And of course, you can use plenty
of FLOSS software on Windows.

> If *I* feel isolated and sometimes lost and struggling, then I can be
> very sure that others less capable certainly will.

Perhaps. It's why there is a list of LUGs at the back of every Linux
Format magazine, for example. If someone picks up the magazine in a
newsagent, there is a support avenue right there. Other people who come
to Linux will either do so because they've been told about it by someone
or have found out about it on the 'net.

You seem to place a strong emphasis on physical location for support.
One of the wonders of the Internet is the ability to provide support for
someone from the other side of the world, in real-time if necessary.

> any LUG contacts etc
> have been via email, or in a large group.

Well, there's e-mail, IRC, wiki, meetings and a number of other ways to
get involved. We don't have large groups of people - meetings are
usually two or three people helping each other out, or a dozen perhaps
watching a talk.

> Part of the issue about
> starting linux is the culture shock, which includes the lack of a retail
> marketing hype -retail therapy in a way.

Yup, I'm sure people get their fingers burnt from commerical providers
and look for alternatives.

> To have even a small local
> element of support is I believe *very*  significant.
> Particularly for ordinary, non technical people.

We have plenty of people in Hants who are non-technical. This isn't an
slur on them - they often tell me they're not. There are plenty of
people in Hants who use Linux because they want something stable and
secure. I believe we provide effective support for them, but would be
interested in any feedback.

I'm not saying that micro-LUGs aren't a way to provide a different type
of support, but I do think that they aren't always sustainable in the
medium term and are over-reliant on one person. If you found you
couldn't do anything more with your micro-LUG, what would happen to it
and the people who have joined your group?

> It does sound as if your experience at the Fairs is in many ways what I
> would call having some micro local group functions. It is focussed on
> newcomers, and fosters beginners. 

Nope, they are "just" InfoPoints. The purpose of InfoPoints is focussed
on newcomers and fostering beginners, by their very nature. (Although we
do get a few more experienced users coming up for a chat too.) There's
an e-mail address people can mail for initial assistance. The support we
offer afterwards is through the usual LUG channels though.

> Whether the local card is played via friends, family retail shops,
> computer fairs, college evening classes, or wherever, I am convinced it
> is very important, particularly now and next year. Whatever it is
> called, it is not an immediate part of the county wide LUG structure as
> it presently exists, as I have seen it.

I think this is the sort of advocacy that is carried out by individuals
all over the place - distributing CDs, talking about Linux (when
appropriate!), demonstrating its strenghts. We have seen new members on
the IRC channel and getting involved with the LUG from existing members
passing out CDs at work.

> BTW a Hants member has a similar approach (adam I think). He has started
> a  local village group via a parish magazine in the Basingstoke area.

Yes, Adam has started a similar group in Overton, and he's also
expressed interest in running InfoPoints in the past. I think perhaps
the difference between the groups is that Adam is using an already
existing group (his parish) and encouraging Linux use in it. It's not
that different from advocating it at work. He also gets members to sign
up to HantsLUG and brought along someone from the group to our last
meeting. (He says he'd like to bring more - he needs to hire a
mini-bus!) But again, if Adam moved away for some reason, at this stage
the group would probably founder. However those that have been
introduced to the wider LUG and attended meetings are much more likely
to stay involved with Linux and the community afterwards.

> I find it a bit strange that some opinions gave me the impressions that
> if an org is not a normal part of an esatblished LUG, somehow it ought
> to be.  As linux becomes much more popular, and I think it will, then
> the existing LUG structure will seem a bit limited. Unless LUGs have an
> age concern and womens institute section, which they may do.

I'm not sure I understand. We have a significant number of older members
in the LUG, and a significant number of women. We don't specifically
tailor activities towards them - we strive to include all, regardless of
age, gender or any other aspect.

LUGs certainly don't represent all Linux usage within their cachement
area though - there are many profesional companies using and retailing
Linux solutions that don't get involved with the LUG community. There
are also plenty of professional Linux users who do so for their job but
have no desire to spend their free time talking about it too.

My point here is that if there are serious advances in Linux desktop
usage in the corpoprate market in the next couple of years, this won't
mean LUGs suddenly have to support them - this will be the
responsibility off companies employed to do so.

But for individual support, I think the existing LUG model is scalable,
and the resources available scale too. Perhaps people would prefer more
meetings in a wider variety of locations if the size of LUGs grow. You
can check out our Frappr map at http://frappr.com/hantslug that
Southampton/Portsmouth and Basingstoke/Aldershot are were the majority
of members are based and it is in these regions that we try to base our
meetings.

>>  In general terms, not specifically to with your group, I find it a
>>  bit frustrating when someone starts a micro-LUG. They duplicate a lot
>>  of effort that has already been done in a county-wide LUG.
> 
> In my case I am not duplicating anything.

No, I didn't say you were. But I'm aware of micro-LUGs that have less
than half a dozen members, yet have a website, wiki, IRC channel and all
the other facilites that a larger LUG has. Of course, they are entitled
to do as they want, but the effort of setting up and running these
facilites for the 6 members could have been put to better use helping an
existing LUG improve, from which an entire county of members could
benefit, not just 6.

> I can walk in 10 minutes to
> almost any likely newcomer. LUGs cannot usually do that. Counties are -
> big.

Can all 200 members of a LUG descend on your neighbours' house? No. But
"a LUG" is just a group of people. But I know there are plenty of LUG
members who help out their neighbours with Linux without setting up a
group to do so.

>>  That
>>  person's effort could be better injected more productively into the
>>  county-wide LUG to help that change and develop new projects.
> 
> I can attend meetings forever, and get nowhere. So can most people. 

I'm not sure I understand your point here.

> The
> LUG is not broke, whay should I try and fix it?

It might not be broken, but there are probably ways that it could be
improved. And we want to know what they are!

> I suggest that the more the 'organisation' shows, then the more that
> people will be reticent to volunteer to do things someone elses way,
> apart from a few types, who like to do that. The big groups are the most
> problematic I think.

There is definitely a critical mass. Perhaps people don't come forward
when everything looks like it's under control. A small number usually
respond to requests for help though.

> Look at some of the pessimistic comments my activity has attracted in
> this (various) thread. If I was in a sensitve mood I would lose the will
> - well not to live - but loose the will to be bothered to do something.

I think it's been a really interesting debate and a well-mannered one.
There are a lot of issues that have been discussed. Your opinions are
interesting and valid. You could have come up with the plan for the way
LUGs will function in the future. But that doesn't mean people won't
raise concerns they may or disagree with your opinions.

> Part of the difficulty is remoteness and lack of personal contact - you
> alluded that above I think - not knowing me for example. I run a large
> uk medical support group (yahoo) and it is 99.5% online. Very few
> activists, no personal contact. I run a local volunteeer group for age
> concern berks (ukonline centre) and volunteers flood out of the woodwork
> - enough for continuing one-to-one help for novices, 15 per day, a day a
> week, for two years and more. There is lot of personal contact.
> This is where a local group, local contact call it anything, is useful.

But both are surely valid communities? Both serve their purpose? If
there are sufficient people involved to sustain a small group - as there
is in your example here - then most of my personal concerns about
sustainability go away.

>>  But I would *love* to gain some time back
>>  from the effort I put into the LUG because someone volunteered to
>>  take over some aspect because they wanted to maintain or improve it.
>>  I have to be prepared to do anything that needs doing myself until
>>  that happens though.
> 
> What happens when you are ill. I go on holiday for a month, have long
> weekends etc. Organisations I have set up in recent years are prompted
> to run without me, and they do.

Yup, and HantsLUG has a committee structure and mailing list admins to
do just that. It goes on without me, but less would happen too. If I
commit to outside agencies or LUG meetings to run InfoPoints, LUG
meetings and other activities I have to ensure they happen. If someone
else doesn't deal with some aspect, I have to be prepared to do so.
Because if things don't happen, we have worse quality InfoPoints, worse
meetings and we look like a shambles to newbies.

>>  Also, smaller groups hinge on that person being around to give it
>>  life. If that person goes away, so does the support for newbies,
>>  bascially.
> 
> True at the beginning. However, most members in bracklux initally ar ein
> fact sypathetic LUG members who ar ether to encourage and help out. The
> very local nature means I find it very convemient, and can fit many
> things into what I do normallly.

It's good that there is a kernel of support there. But do they all go
round and visit people in their homes to help with Linux? Or do most of
them just answer technical e-mails? If the latter and there was a demand
for a newbies list or forums, I wouldn't be against it. However, I don't
like that sort of separatism. It doesn't help people get involved with a
LUG and cordons them off as a "newbie" - a status they might not decide
they are ever ready to drop. Heck, all Linux users learn something new
about the OS every day.

>>  It's about 17 miles to our new "north Hants" venue from Bracknell,
>>  about 25 to our hold one.
> 
> Not too bad if needed. I may see you there before long. It is not likely
> to be every meeting though.

Very few people attend every meeting, but travel problems are why we
move them around the county. It would certainly be great to see you at a
meeting. You could even give a talk on bracklux if you were interested
in so doing.

>>  We also have people who regularly come from
>>  the Bracknell area to LUG meetings in Southampton.
> 
> I came to one not long ago.

Indeed, you attended our June meeting in Southampton, which was an
unusually busy one with over 40 attendees.

>>  Different people
>>  cope with driving longer distances in different ways, but hopefully
>>  the "northern" venues are close enough for you.
> 
> I used to live  by driving around the M25, and now spend a lot of time
> driving a motorhome around Europe, driving is not the problem istelf. It
> takes time, and some money, and there is the need for parking. It is
> just an extra hassle in life which conspires to offer a hurdle in
> starting and continuing linux.

It's just an extra hassle in life "full-stop", I think. :) FWIW, we
always ensure there is adequate parking either at or close by the
meeting venue. It's always free parking too.

>>  One thing I've never come across is a "WUG", micro or otherwise.
> 
> My neighbours, friends, workmates (when I worked), the IT section,
> newspapers, most magazines, family, you name it, they are *all* part of
> WUG. And what is more there is a multi million pound industry marketing
> correct thinking out there too. We are surrounded by a very big and
> pervading WUG.

But there isn't a community - a bunch of people who get together because
they like helping people use Windows, or like getting Windows do work in
obscure ways. Yes there is a gaming community and there are case
modders, but they're not based on a software platform itself and an
important philosophy behind it.

> It takes time to make use of once per month of course, without being
> local the personal contact possibility is difficult. It may mean that
> for 29 days in a month people you meet and talk to think you are nuts,
> and one day per month, it is great.

I'm sure there are people that think I'm nuts 24x7. We commit to running
meetings once a month. (That schedule involves a month's preparation for
the next meeting - it's a never ending cycle.) People have suggested
meeting more often. When someone has tried to organise an informal local
meeting, no-one came. It takes someone or a small group to volunteer to
do something and to *keep doing it*. If someone in HantsLUG wanted to
organise weekly meetings I think that would be great. But they would be
organising them, not me.

Hmm, that seems like rather a negative point to end on. Oh well. I
really do hope your InfoPoints and bracklux take off well and prove my
worries wrong. But I hope likewise that you can see my concerns are for
the image of Linux in the community as a whole, particularly at this
important time for Linux.

Tony
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