[Lancaster] Re: Help -- Video importing/processing software

[Ken Hough]

Martyn Welch wrote:

>On Wednesday 02 August 2006 12:49, Ken Hough wrote:
>  
>
>>I hear all of the points that you make, but the fact is that we are
>>presently left with a less than satisfactory situation where users
>>suffer and a previously willing helper has been pissed off. Maybe he is
>>now behaving like a big baby, I don't know. Maybe he isn't the only one.
>>
>>    
>>
>
>I agree, though to be fair I'm not sure this contributor was sticking to the 
>rules.
>  
>
Maybe, maybe not. Who's rules anyway?

>>In order to gain full functionality of my webcam, I have no choice but
>>to use Microsoft Windows. That irks me!
>>    
>>
>From what I understand, the new kernel driver should be working with full 
>functionality, though I must admit it will depend on which revision of the 
>kernel Suse are using...
>  
>
Yeh! But it's jam tomorrow again. I (and others) need something now.

>>Living in an idealists world where practical compromises are not
>>allowed, can only damage the image of Linux in the eyes of would be
>>USERS. Idealism is fine to determine goals, but in my (now rather long)
>>experience is NEVER 100% workable in the real world.
>>
>>Do you really believe that the likes of Philips are going to pay any
>>attention to a relatively small bunch of guys who are effectively
>>DEMANDING that they change their ways?
>>
>>    
>>
>
>I'd suggest that it is the growing userbase demanding that they produce Linux 
>compatible devices which they should be listening to.
>  
>
Should be? Who can force them to?

They will only start scratching (ie listening) when the itch becomes big 
enough to bother with and in spite of what we wish to believe, that 
point remains some way off.

>>I come back to my point about 'hearts and minds'. The best way to grow
>>Linux has to be to accomodate the likes of Philips and other top class
>>hardware suppliers. They all have a vested interest in keeping Microsoft
>>happy which in turn means not promoting Linux.
>>
>>I think this is dangerous. There is always the option of doing exactly what 
>>Ndiswrapper and Nvidia do. Philips aren't actually interested at the moment, 
>>it was someone offering to do the work for them who didn't want to deal with 
>>the overhead of doing it that way.
>>
>>I think they have a vested interest to not to be tied to microsoft.
>>    
>>
I think you are wrong. The commercial world tends to plan for maybe 5 
years ahead, typically less in the IT/computer world. Realisticaly, a 
Linux revolution is not likely to come within that time. Therefore there 
IS a very strong case for companies  to operate amicably alongside 
Microsoft.

I did not say 'tied to' Microsoft. If a viable commercial opportunity is 
presented, most would be happy to dump Microsoft.

>>I have used Linux almost exclusively now for several years and wish to
>>continue with it. I do not wish to recompile my kernel, although I have
>>done this in the past. It would be nice not to have to go through the
>>processes of ./configure, make and make install (only to discover that
>>various packages are missing) to gain some additional functionality. OK,
>>I know there are reasons why, but this is not for essencially non
>>technical users.
>>
>>    
>>
>
>I'll agree with you there. This is where the problem of being in a niche group 
>comes into play.
>  
>
In these days of 'multimedia', users of webcams are hardly a niche group.

>Interestingly on the webcam front there seems to be light at the end of the 
>tunnel (though it's still a little way off):
>
>http://linux-uvc.berlios.de/
>  
>
That's always the problem. Light at the end of the tunnel. Meanwhile 
(possible) light now is being stiffled in the name of 'purity', 
idealism', or call it what you will, and many potential converts will be 
turned off.

>>I DO wish to see the Linux user base grow. I'm reluctantly beginning to
>>believe that growth will remain limited untill there's a change of
>>attitude on both sides and that this must come first from the Linux side.
>>    
>>
>I disagree. An interesting observation that a few of us who attended Lug Radio 
>Live discussed was that the vast majority of the talks were not concerned 
>with low-level issues, but GUI and productivity issues.
>  
>
I suggest that would be the response from most people who attend large 
gatherings of like minded people, be they political, religious or other 
'avangelical' meetings. It's very easy to become a convert and to loose 
perspective on the world as a whole.

I'm now wearing my 'old grey bearded sage' hat. ;-)

>Linux is still quite a new operating system, the core technology is now 
>starting to become solid and focus is beginning to spread up and outwards. 
>The main focus for Linux is/has/was the server market. More focus is now 
>moving to other markets such as the desktop and embedded space. It is now 
>that support for things such as webcams and other random peripherals will 
>start to flourish.
>
>We are still at the early adopter stage in terms of desktop use, though it's 
>growing fast, which is going to put pressure on companies such as Philips to 
>play if they want a piece of the market.
>  
>
It's of little use to develop the best operating system in the world 
unless it can connect with the real world in ways that users want. Most 
potential users have little patience and less technical appreciation of 
what goes on beyond the keyboard/mouse/screen. Many can't even use a 
keyboard properly. They buy a box, take out the contents, plug it in and 
expect it to work.

I still believe that until the Linux community takes this on board, 
Linux will not became a mainstream (ie popular) operating system.

I'm sure that if I was not already moderately knowledgable wrt Linux, I 
would have given up and returned to the Microsoft world just to be able 
to actually use my webcam. The difficulty of getting hardware to work 
under Linux has always been a major gripe and putoff for potential (and 
actual) users.

The hard fact is that most hardware suppliers are NOT going to provide 
native Linux drivers any time soon. It's been demonstrated that some MS 
drivers and even MS some applications can be made to run under Linux. 
Surely, it must be possible to arrange for most drivers to 
cooperate/work with Linux.

Sod purity, idealism, etc!

Let's get Linux noticed and accepted ASAP. Only, then will the major 
hardware vendors start to take serious notice.


Ken