[Lancaster] Re: Help -- Video importing/processing software

[Ken Hough]

Martyn Welch wrote:

>On Thursday 03 August 2006 09:36, Ken Hough wrote:
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>>Maybe, maybe not. Who's rules anyway?
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>The kernel hackers rules.
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And they write the rules.

>>>I'd suggest that it is the growing userbase demanding that they produce
>>>Linux compatible devices which they should be listening to.
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>>Should be? Who can force them to?
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><shrug /> Their share holders?
>I guess no one can force them.
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Exactly! And we come back to there having to be a commercial case.

>>They will only start scratching (ie listening) when the itch becomes big
>>enough to bother with and in spite of what we wish to believe, that
>>point remains some way off.
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>Yup.
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>>I think you are wrong. The commercial world tends to plan for maybe 5
>>years ahead, typically less in the IT/computer world. Realisticaly, a
>>Linux revolution is not likely to come within that time. Therefore there
>>IS a very strong case for companies  to operate amicably alongside
>>Microsoft.
>>
>>I did not say 'tied to' Microsoft. If a viable commercial opportunity is
>>presented, most would be happy to dump Microsoft.
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>Yes, though to be in a position to dump microsoft they need to have explored 
>other avenues. If they are not producing drivers for what could become 
>reasonably sized markets they won't be in a suitable position.
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Do you seriously believe that other options are not being kept under 
review? Even Microsoft are doing that.

>>>>I have used Linux almost exclusively now for several years and wish to
>>>>continue with it. I do not wish to recompile my kernel, although I have
>>>>done this in the past. It would be nice not to have to go through the
>>>>processes of ./configure, make and make install (only to discover that
>>>>various packages are missing) to gain some additional functionality. OK,
>>>>I know there are reasons why, but this is not for essencially non
>>>>technical users.
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>I'll agree with you there. This is where the problem of being in a niche
>>>group comes into play.
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>>>
>>In these days of 'multimedia', users of webcams are hardly a niche group.
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>But users of one specific family of webcams are.
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Which happens to be one of the most popular and technically the best. In 
fact the driver (originally) under discussion can run webcams from 
several manufacturers.

>>>Interestingly on the webcam front there seems to be light at the end of
>>>the tunnel (though it's still a little way off):
>>>
>>>http://linux-uvc.berlios.de/
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>>>
>>That's always the problem. Light at the end of the tunnel. Meanwhile
>>(possible) light now is being stiffled in the name of 'purity',
>>idealism', or call it what you will, and many potential converts will be
>>turned off.
>>
>>For now maybe potential converts will be turned off. I don't think this is 
>>that bigger deal.
>>
That's the attitude which irks me. ie 'I won't pay attention to what 
people actually want, because I know I am right and I'm going to do it 
my way nomatter what'.

It reminds me of the recent attitude of some well known polititians. 
They tend not to last very long.

> If windows is still a better trade-off for them at the 
>moment then they should continue to use windows...
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And who can blame them?

>>I suggest that would be the response from most people who attend large
>>gatherings of like minded people, be they political, religious or other
>>'avangelical' meetings. It's very easy to become a convert and to loose
>>perspective on the world as a whole.
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>I agree with that.
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>>I'm now wearing my 'old grey bearded sage' hat. ;-)
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>Looks good ;-)
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Thanks.... I think    ;-)

>>It's of little use to develop the best operating system in the world
>>unless it can connect with the real world in ways that users want. Most
>>potential users have little patience and less technical appreciation of
>>what goes on beyond the keyboard/mouse/screen. Many can't even use a
>>keyboard properly. They buy a box, take out the contents, plug it in and
>>expect it to work.
>>
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>Bad expectations that have been pushed by Microsoft for years and which they 
>are still failing to fullfill.
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To be fair, they have met them to a considerable extent, at least in the 
eyes of the average user.

>>I still believe that until the Linux community takes this on board,
>>Linux will not became a mainstream (ie popular) operating system.
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>I'm not sure that easy-of-use is that much of a blocking factor to the 
>adoption of Linux. I think it is a preconceived notion (usually derived from 
>windows) of how a computer must work that is the blocking factor. 
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Call it preconceived, but to the average (non techy) computer user it 
can only be very significant blocking factor.

>Copying the procedures used by windows (in terms of software 
>selection/installation hardware support, etc) would probably accelerate the 
>growth of Linux at the expense of it becoming a "windows clone".
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If  "Copying the proceedures used by windows...." means making these 
proceedures easy, then what is wrong with that. AFAIK, nobody in the 
Linux world has come up with any earth shattering (ie simpler) 
alternative ways of doing these things.

MS Windows has the front end that it has, because it works, most people 
like it and it has been developed with that in mind.
It's just a shame about the rubbish OS underneath it and the attitude of 
Microsoft in general.


We are in danger here of trying to invent a new square wheel just to be 
different, instead of refining an already tried, working and popular 
round one.

>>I'm sure that if I was not already moderately knowledgable wrt Linux, I
>>would have given up and returned to the Microsoft world just to be able
>>to actually use my webcam. The difficulty of getting hardware to work
>>under Linux has always been a major gripe and putoff for potential (and
>>actual) users.
>>
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>
>I agree, though I also remember why I started using Linux - because I find 
>using windows so frustrating and am prepared to make some sacrifices in order 
>not to have to live with the frustration.
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You are knowledgable enough to be able to make those sacrifices. Most 
people are not and do not wish to be. That is not likely to change in 
the foreseeable future.

I started using Linux seriously for the same reason., It wasn't easy to 
begin with, but then I can be very stuborn.

>>The hard fact is that most hardware suppliers are NOT going to provide
>>native Linux drivers any time soon. It's been demonstrated that some MS 
>>drivers and even MS some applications can be made to run under Linux.
>>Surely, it must be possible to arrange for most drivers to
>>cooperate/work with Linux.
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>Possibly. Though many will blame window's stability issues on badly written 
>drivers. Those drivers would also be useless for anyone using a non-x86 
>platform. 
>
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I'm sure that we could identify a few Linux drivers with problems.

>So it works, until you buy a nice new shiny computer with a 64-bit processor, 
>then you either loose the support for the device which uses 32-bit drivers or 
>run a 32-bit OS, loosing the advantages of having a 64-bit processor.
>
>Or you decide you want to run Linux on your PowerPC mac. You plug the camera 
>in and it won't work because the driver has been compiled for intel hardware.
>
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So in order to satisfy the purists view we ban everything which will not 
allow the incorporation of drivers with all types of processor including 
32/64 types, etc, etc, etc  --- despite the fact that allowing this 
incorporation could benefit the vast majority of actual and potential users.

>Binary drivers are technically a bad way to go.
>
Technically yes! Practically, I don't necessarily believe so.

> It limits the kernel hackers' 
>ability to debug the kernel - thus leading to a weaker OS. It limits the 
>platforms on which hardware can be used - thus limiting the growth of linux. 
>That is why they don't like them.
>  
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Yeh! The kernel hackers want a quiet life. Who can blame them, but it's 
users like me who loose out, and maybe even the spread of Linux in the 
longer term..

>>Let's get Linux noticed and accepted ASAP. Only, then will the major
>>hardware vendors start to take serious notice.
>>
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>I agree, but I don't think that loads of binary drivers are going to 
>particularly help in the mid-long term.
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I've lived long enough to understand that idealisic approaches just do 
not work, short, mid or long term. Take a look back at history. If 
nothing else, human attitudes/actions WILL mess things up.

There is such a thing as grabbing the moment. This typically means going 
with maybe 90% of what is wanted. There are countless enterprises which 
failed because this was not done.


Ken