[Sussex] Straw Poll

[Geoff Teale]

Steve wrote:
------------
> There is no argument from here.  Emacs is very powerful.
> Far to powerful some would say.  If you're becoming a 
> Emacs power user then when are you going to replace 
> "/bin/bash" for you account in /etc/passwd with
> "/usr/bin/emacs"?

Well, I doubt it'll ever go that far (though emacs has a perfectly good
shell environment), but I have to admit that I find it convenient when I'm
coding to send and recieve mail in the same environment and maybe do some
simple web browsing.  I think for the experienced Emacs user there are very
few things you can't do in that environment - it can become very
comfortable.

One thing that annoys me about the modern Emacs distribution is that it is
so damn large, there is no need for it to be.  The reason is that it comes
bundled with hundreds of modes and the lisp source for them - that's great,
but, for instance, I'm not likely to be using apl-mode.elc or perl-mode.elc
anytime soon.

All of this could be avoided if they added a feature like "pull new mode
from the web and install" (of course you can do this anyway, but new users
seem to find this daunting).

> This shows your age.  being able to move around in 
> insert mode is a new feature (new in my terms).  When
> I started using vi if you tried to use the arrow keys
> you got strange bits of text in your file.  This teaches
> one to hit ESC when you finish you're insert.  My starting
> point is always from command mode.

Makes sense... different muscle memory ;)
 
> Oh do I know vi muscle memory well.  When someone comes up
> to me and asks a vi question I have to type in the air before
> I can tell them what they want to know.

Exactly what I was doing!  It's funny though, in Emacs I can actually think
in terms of Ctrl-x 1 and Meta-x rec TAB.
 
> Agreed.  I don't use menus in XEmacs much myself (although I 
> do use the cursor keys a far bit (not that I have to I just
> find it natural - more muscle memory again).

Ah yes, but you need to remember you Ctrl-f, Ctrl-b, Ctrl-n, Ctrl-p, Ctrl-e,
Ctrl-a, Ctrl-l and of course there Meta-equivalents incase you ever come
across a happy-hacker keyboard or a Sun Type 2 keyboard :)
 
> Indeed times have changed.  But the fact that there are little
> differences between vi and its clones is a problem.  Microsoft
> can justly claim that Windows is the same the world over; that
> it is a standard.  The differences between the vi, ps, top[as]
> and the other tools is a stone that Microsoft can throw at *nix.

I don't think it's that important a stone - and it would assume that vi is
the _standard_ editor for UNIX, it isn't, do a `man ed` and find out :)  If
Microsoft was ever as petty as to say that vim operates differently from vi,
and thus UNIX is inferior, then you could justly claim that not only does
Word 2003 work differently from Wordperfect, but it also differs in several
ways from Word XP or Word X for Mac OS X - better still you could point out
that notepad has all the functionality of a puppy-poo hat.  Microsoft could
equally point out that notepad is a very intuitive application (once you
have adopted the Windows paradigm for how an app will operate) vi and ed are
not.  For this reason, once again, I think is a good thing that most new
users will see their standard editors to be one of the following three:

in KDE - Kedit
in Gnome - Gedit
in the console - Nano

... ultimately if you need the power functionality of vi or Emacs then
you're likely to be capable of installing them. 
 
> vi has evolved - new bits of functionality have been added
> (like roaming around in insert mode - I remember the days when
> one couldn't moved outside of the insert area).  But it hasn't
> changed it's "unique" interface to do it.  If it did then it
> would be a different editor.  Some companies may think it fun
> to completely change the way a tool works, but Unix know better
> than that: if it ain't broke don't fix it.

Sure.  I have no problem with vi.  I just feel it is odd that people still
set out on the journey that leads to groking vi, when it is so much simpler
not to.  
   
> Agreed, one does program to the power of the beast available.
> One only has to look at the way Outlook works when dialled in to
> know that those Gigabit links to the desk in Microsoft HQ need
> to be replaced with a 9600 baud PPP link :-)

Yup.  15 years ago Emacs was bloatware, now it is a good and fast solution.

  
> > ooooh, handbags :)
> 
> Bet comeback on one of my rants I've seen in a long time :-D
>  

Hardly the most original though.  It does fill me with the urge to quote a
famous line from the first film version of the "The importance of being
Earnest", but those who would appreciate it don't need to hear it, and those
who wouldn't probably don't wish to hear it.

> Okay, I'll concede.  My first use of vi was as painful as the
> rest of you (I had been using EDT on VMS before which is much
> closer to Emacs than vi).

*yay*
 
> But maybe that very "painful" interface to a newbie is why it
> has survived.  The sense of achievement when starts to master
> it just isn't there in a "friendly editor".  I was going to say
> that maybe the reason for vi's longevity was that it is still 
> the only editor available on many commercial Unix boxes, but 
> now I', being to think that there maybe something else here.

This was my second contention - that there is kudos in conquering vi, it is
a rite of passage.

> vi is a beast; a beast to be timed.  

OK, I'll set my stopwatch ;)

That is among the more humourous typo's I've seen recently.

> By taming vi one gets 
> the same basic emotions that the caveman must have got from
> taming the wolf.  

Though perhaps with rather more limbs intact and fewer teeth marks.  

1st Caveman: Hey guys, I'm a newbie here, how do I tame the wolf?
2nd Caveman: DTFM
1st Caveman: DTFM?
2nd Caveman: Drug The F*****g Meat!


> Of course sitting next to a power vi user
> (as I was when I started work) helps, 'cos one can see that 
> vi can do so much more than just edit text!

Yeah, exactly.  The first time I used vi was on a bash scripting course run
by SCO (prior to that we'd used Nedit at Uni), in the context of that course
it seemed like a big waste of time, but as the boxes we had only had vi we
had no choice - there was no way at that point to see that vi was a powerful
tool.  The only reason I ever gave vi another chance was because other UNIX
people kept requiring me to use it and I learnt a few tricks along the way.


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