[Sussex] A rant on using different distributions

[Paul Tansom]

Matthew Macdonald-Wallace wrote:
<snip>
>  Now that I've got the distro up and running, I've been playing with
> apt.  so far my impression is this - it's crap.

Hmm, OK, being very careful with my wording here (I hope) because I
really don't have anything against any distribution in particular (in
spite of having a real go at Red Hat at times, before somebody picks my
up on that!). Anyone is welcome to use what they like and now that I
have QEMU working on my system I'm planning to get a Fedora install
working to play with. Anyway...

> Here's a little example of how to install in Gentoo vs how to install in
> Debian:
> 
> Gentoo:
> 
> emerge -s packageName
> emerge packageName
> 
> Debian:
> 
> apt-cache search packageName
> apt-get install packageName
> 
> Why do I need to use two seperate tools to find and then install a
> package???

OK, I really don't see the issue here. You need to type to commands
either way, it just so happens that with Gentoo the one command does
both actions depending on the parameters. Debian just chose to have one
command that does the installing and one which queries the cache
information. Anyway, sticking with Debian (assuming you are using a
recent versions) try:

aptitude search packageName
aptitude install packageName

Problem sorted :)

> Error reporting in Gentoo is great.  It gives proper error messages like
> "This package will not be installed because it is blocked by package x.
> Please remove that package before installing this one."
> 
> Debian simply said "This package depends on package x, but it's not
> going to be installed".  WHY THE F**K NOT? TELL ME WHAT I NEED TO DO TO
> STOP THIS HAPPENING!  DON'T JUST TELL ME YOU CAN'T DO IT! [1]

Well I don't see either option as being perfect to be honest:

Gentoo asks you to remove package x - perhaps I don't want to do that,
and perhaps by installing a more recent version of package x it would
not be blocking the install. There's no information about whether they
clash because of a fundamental issue or simply version numbers.

Debian states that package x is not going to be installed, but is
required. There's no information as to why it isn't going to be
installed though.

I've not used Gentoo, and I am familiar with Debian, but allowing for
this fact I would personally prefer the inadequacies of Debian than
Gentoo here (although in practice the error messages can't really be
compared because they are describing different situations - Gentoo has a
package it doesn't need, whereas Debian needs a package it doesn't have
- so you're not comparing like with like).

You, being familiar with Gentoo, can no doubt tell me how I can find out
easily whether I can work out exactly why package x needs removing. I'm
guessing that there's and equivalent to "aptitude show packageName" that
will list information including dependencies to help with this.

On the Debian example I know that I can use the already mentioned
"aptitude search packageName" to find if the required package is simply
not available from the current sources.lst, and if it is what the
requirements are to install it and resolve the issue. I would guess that
Gentoo has an equivalent function - again you will not doubt be familiar
with that.

Equally yum, apt4rpm, etc. for Red Hat/Fedora and Yast (I think it is)
for SuSE will have equivalent features (less familiar with SuSE having
written it off as an option back in 1999, iirc, although I need to look
at it again).

> My advice from now on to anyone that cares to take it is this:
> 
> If you want a small footprint that is quick to install but completely
> non-sensical to maintain, use debian.  If you're willing to wait for the
> added stability and tuning that compiling your own software through an
> easy-to-use, understandable command-line interface ( and let's face it,
> with the speed of machines that are out at the moment, it's not a huge
> difference!) use Gentoo.
> 
> /me stands down from soap box, dons flame-proof jacket and fdisks every
> debian mirror he can find...
> 
> Matt
> 
> [1] Sorry about going all "AOL" on you there, it just really gets to me...

I'll forgive you on the basis that it is simply a matter of frustration
at not being able to do things you are used to doing because you aren't
familiar with the distribution. I know that feeling :)

When I switched from Red Hat to Debian (back in 2000 iirc) it was a
little difficult at first, but back then I could see the fact that it
was worth it because Red Hat was such a nightmare to use that I
frequently found myself wondering whether Linux was really worth the
effort and perhaps I should switch back to Windows. With a working
system, no competition; the concept of RPM packages and dependencies
rather than overwriting files used by other applications at will, again
no competition; finding those dependencies and following them all
through, Windows won hands down! In some respects Debian probably saved
me from giving up on Linux (although I was using it at work too by then,
so it would have been difficult!). Red Hat nearly turned me off!

With the variety of distributions today I think most are catching up
with Debian so there is less to choose between them. Not having tried
Gentoo I can't say for sure, but Red Hat/Fedora look to still have a way
to go in terms of the package repositories and ease of upgrading between
major versions (from my experience so far). I'll be giving Gentoo a
while some day, but I've heard that even with a 64 bit processor it can
take a while to compile some things and install initially (that's from
Gentoo fans too).

-- 
Paul Tansom | Aptanet Ltd. | http://www.aptanet.com/