[Wylug-discuss] KDE

[david powell]

On Tuesday 03 January 2006 9:29 am, Smylers wrote:

> Fair enough; I'm in no position to comment on that one way or another,
> as a mere end user.  What I have observed is that KDE users seem more
> likely to use all KDE applications than Gnome users are to use all Gnome
> apps.  Similarly apps such as Firefox and Vim that are neither KDE nor
> Gnome (they're both multi-OS, for a start) tend to be supplied in
> GTK/Gnome forms, rather than QT/KDE.
>
> There could be several reasons for this:
>
> * KDE is so restrictive that it doesn't work well with non-KDE apps, so
>   if you use KDE then you shouldn't expect to be able to use non-KDE
>   apps.
no , it works fine with non kde applications 
the exeception beeing some apps that use native x root ( the background image)
so to run a screensaver as a background image  like 
blocktube -root  
you have to configure the background to allow programs to be run in the 
background and that hides the desktop icons
but other apps work ok 
>
> * KDE is so good that absolutely everything you could ever want is
>   provided with a ksomethingorother, so if you use KDE you never need to
>   look outside it ever again.
most of the kde apps work well with kde , after using kde for a while i did 
change to using mainly kde apps as they work well in kde , and use the extra 
features that kde offers 
>
> * It's hard for makers of 'neutral' apps to compile them to do KDE
>   versions.
thats all down to libs used  for gui you can use gtk or qt or native x
functions for creating windows , buttons etc 
gnome uses gtk , kde uses qt and both work with native x ones
>
> * All the individuals who make neutral apps just happen to have
>   separately chosen to be Gnome users, for some reason.
there are a lot of indipendant apps that use gtk , but find that the reson 
they are indipendent is often because they will not be included within gnome 

kde tries to give some support for apps written that use it , hence the rather 
large list of them at http://www.kde-apps.org/
apps that are not part of gnome are left to the writers to host 
what happens with kde is if a application that is written for kde is submitted 
to kde-apps then it is still indipendent , if people like it it may get 
included in the kde distribution , 
but kde can offer aid to developers in the form of svn(cvs) 

>
> But collectively they make me more apprehensive about KDE.  I realize
> that one can run Gnome apps in KDE (and vice versa), but having the
> back-ends for either one of them loaded is enough to make people like
> Jim look on in astonishment; having both of them loaded on a regular
> basis doesn't sound like a good use of resources.
>
the main problem is libs , if the libs are installed on the machine then
any program that needs them can use them 
and gnome and kde have 2 big sets of available libs to call upon 
  
> > kate a text editor is cool
>
> I can't imagine there's any chance I'm going to switch from Vim in the
> near future!
>
you seem to use apps that you are used to 
vim has been around for a long time , guess i could say the same in the past 
i used to use a editor called word star  along time ago in cp/m 
but times change software imporves and ways change 
but word star was all control sequences , powerfull in its time , but today 
there are different editors with a lot more features , guess the only way to 
take advantage of those is to , try, learn, and take the bit by the teeth and 
give them a go , 

as an example vim could if you file feature requests , or code it yourself 
also include the new features of some of the others now available but after a 
point it no longer becomes vim as you know it , and can upset a lot of users 
that like it as it is  , like you seem to , not trying to be harsh here , but 
you have the chioce , continue using the apps you are used to and not get the 
new features or learn new ones that do 

> > the apps are easy to configure and still have plenty of misc options that
> > allow you to personalize the application
>
> See my previous comment about not being bothered about customizing my
> window manager ...
>
> > kmail for mail ,
>
> I'm less attached to Mutt than I am to Vim, but I can't imagine
> switching to something that isn't console-based.  For a start, I want to
> be able to run it over SSH in a terminal.
>
> > configureable  mail filter options ,
>
> How does that work?  What's it offer above Procmail?  Why would one want
> to filter mail in an MUA?  Does that mean if you check for mail with a
> different MUA your mail is no longer filtered (because it only happens
> on checking mail, rather than on delivery)?
>
> > > > konqueror  kdes file manager and web browser is good ,
> > >
> > > But in what way specifically?  What are the features that make it good?
> >
> > konqueror , well its kool , not over clutted ,
>
> I've used it occasionally on other people's computers, and found it more
> cluttered than my Firefox set-up (though not as bad as Opera).
>
> > one of the features that i use often in konqueror is the ^ button
>
> Yeah, that is nice.  In Firefox I have extensions installed such that
> pressing Alt+Up or doing a drag-upwards mouse gesture does that (there
> is a button available, but I don't have it visible, to reduce clutter).
>
> > auto file previews on local files gives you a preview of the contents
> > before opening
>
> But only if I decide that using a file manager is going to work better
> for me than Bash.
>
> > i did 2 screenshots of my desktop
>
> Thanks.
>
> > > (talking of terminals, one of the things that most irritated me the
> > > last time I used KDE was that Shift+Ins in a Konsole doesn't insert
> > > the X selection)
> >
> > i right click and paste it there
>
> But that pastes from the clipboard, not the X selection.
> Middle-clicking (or sometimes Shift+Middle-clicking) inserts the X
> selection, but involves moving a hand to the mouse, which is often
> inconvenient when typing in a console -- and especially when Shift+Ins
> has worked for many, many years in every other Linux terminal I've ever
> tried!  I was so not impressed that KDE broke this.
>
> > > [I don't] use a file manager -- except for browsing music files and
> > > drag-and-dropping them to an XMMS playlist window.
> >
> > amorok is one of kde's media players for music , it works well , in
> > konqueror clicking on the music file will open it with one of the
> > installed players , the file type for a file may have more than one
> > program that will open it and there is provision to specify the one of
> > your preferance , so no need to drag and drop , just click and play
>
> If I want to play a file I'd probably either open it from within XMMS or
> use xmms -e to load it from a Bash prompt (with the benefits of tab
> completion) -- I certainly wouldn't open up a file manager for that.
>
> But for creating a playlist, such as sequencing several hours of music
> in advance of a party, using a graphical tool to rummage around in my
> music collection and dragging tracks into the playlist seems like an
> appropriate interface.  I was taking it as read that KDE does this --
> but Amorok sounds like it's better than XMMS for setting up playlists
> anyway.
it may be a good point to mention someting about some kde applications 
a lot of kde applications are written ground up for kde 
some are frontends for non kde applications that provide a kde frontend and 
features to apps that where not witten for kde originaly 

>
> > > And I'm very happy with Firefox as a web browser.  What nice features
> > > does Konqueror provide that I'm missing out on?
> >
> > konqueror is more integrated into kde than firefox or netscape can be
>
> What does that mean?
other apps can link to it and it can link to other apps  an example is 
kpdf , go on the web find a pdf file clock on it and it changes into a pdf 
viewer and views it , no messing arround opening it up in another window 
that is if you want it to do that or another window is an option also


>
> > i find it easyer to surf with than the others
>
> Any chance you can describe why?
>
> > and well no popups eather , and has  good cookie management section
>
> Firefox's pop-up blocker (and FlashBlock) seem to be working for me, and
> I'm generally happy with my cookies.  I suspect that even if I switch to
> KDE I predict I'd stick with Firefox.
>
> If I do switch it'll probably because of lots of little things, things
> 'between' my main apps, if you see what I mean.  For example, the
> audiocd:/ looks very spiffy, with no interface at all for ripping MP3s
> from CDs -- just pretending that they already exist and magically making
> them happen if needed!  And camera:/ too.
k3b , is the cd/dvd writer program it works well and is easy to use 
i dont rip mp3's so not sure if that will , but think there is a program 
around for that 
>
> > guess it would be better to know what types of apps you need to use ,
> > then i could of been more specific as to what programs are avalable
>
> I wasn't really asking.  With the main day-to-day apps I do stuff in I'm
> pretty happy with them, so unlikely to switch those.  But things like
> the "You want to overwrite the left picture with the one on the right"
> are so obvious when you mention them that I want them now!
>
true , but you got to remeber that the overwrite function is true of kde 
applications 
if using say, vim then that does not use the kde calls so it will work in the 
way vim does at the moment 
kate and other kde applications on the other hand will 

its fair to say that kde as a windowmanager provides that sort of functions to 
all apps that write a file , and use the kde lib to do that , so non kde apps 
that you use that use other libs to write files will not give you the same 
functions 

again other features like dcop , can be used within kde applications , 
you can still use bash to start programs even amorok , 
guess it depends about how you use your system 
bash maybe say 

cd /home/user/music
ls
look to see if the you want to play is there
and say 
xmms (options if needed) ( flie to play)
ok 
but it can be just as easy to have a file manager open , in the dir you have 
the music
and just one mouse click on the file you want to play 
rather than typing 20 to 30 charicters on the keyboard 
and again , amorok , you can just start it and it will search you drive for 
any files to play , you can sort them and use it that way , so you dont need 
to  worry about where it is 

 
> The article I linked to gave me a good taste of some of the nice
> features KDE has that I'm missing out on.  I just mentioned it here:
>
> * so that anybody else in a similar position could also learn of these
>
> * and to request a demo if somebody feels like it, cos I think seeing
>   the features rather than reading about them would make me appreciate
>   them more
>
> (Though of course if anybody has anything else similar to what's
> mentioned in that article to add then I'm eager to hear it.)
>
> > nifty features , well there are probablay more than i would mention as
> > having used kde for some time they are normal to me and what i would
> > expect from it
>
> That's a problems with rival systems in general; most people are
> committed to one, so it's hard to find a decent comparison between them!
>
yes , i use kde because i perfer the way it works , i like the apps and it 
works well , initaly i spent some time getting things the way i like it but 
found it worth it in the end , gnome for me was the same last year as when i
first tried it about 8 years ago , little seems to have changed (although i 
know things have) and yes i use kde apps , because thay provide the extra 
features that kde apps do offer , and its what your used to also 

bad points well arts the audio driver can be trubblesome , but using alsa 
drivers solve most issues with that 
resauces  kde like gnome is a big window manager and can use alot of system 
resauces , so the  usual situation of do you want the extra features or are 
you into minimalistic use like black box windowmanager or console only no x



  
> Thanks for your help.
>
> Smylers
a side note , think this deserves some mention , and explains some 
misconceptions re the gnome and kde teams 
there is a reason that the two seem to develop in isolation 
this is a technical issue i will describe it from a kde developers point of 
view but the same is true in reverse

when writing an application for kde it is preffered that it uses kde libs 
once you start using a lib from gnome you start to get problems 
firstly if you get a bug in the lib , then you get stuck with not having 
direct access to the gnome developers for that lib and as in some cases it 
does not affect gnome then it is often a long time for a fix 
the other problem is if the gnome guy's change a lib then you only find out on 
the next gnome release when you app fails because of it 
this being technical as to solve it the kde and gnome devs would need to have 
a central compined cvs/svn to ensure that things went smoothly 
its has been found difficult and has caused problems so its recomended to 
avoid where posable 
 the joint effort of the accessibility developers for kde and gnome is to 
integrate speech dispacher into both as the basic speech engine 
this should allow for speech from boot up to shutdown where enabled
and a comman interface that both can use

as the release dates differ for kde and gnome this would also complicate 
development of programs that use both 

in a lot of cases i think this seems to do nothing but fuel a flame war but 
its unaviodable  , thing you got to remeber is there is chioce , you use what 
software you like , the flame war starts by saying one is better than the 
other , from that users point of view  it his to him/her, because its how 
they like it to be and what they are used to , same goes for distros 
one of the best examples of that is ask a windows user what he thinks of linux 
the answer is quite often negative , but the real reason is that the user does 
not understand linux where he does understand windows and is not willing to 
learn 
 
david