[Gllug] Editors

[Kieran Barry]

On Tue, 31 Jul 2001, Tom Gilbert wrote:

> * Kieran Barry (kieran at esperi.demon.co.uk) wrote:
> > > Your argument can also be taken to an extreme. 
> > 
> > This would be his claim that granting freedom requires responsibility?
> > 
> > >                                             After all, a totally free
> > > society is one where you are truly free to do what you want. 
> > 
> > Total freedom, of course, requires absolute responsibility.

I thought that "individual" was implied there.
> 
> Sorry, but this is such crap :)

I think that my ommision of individual here misled you. Unless you'd 
like to restate under the new wording.
> 
> I can be responsible for myself, sure. But I can't be responsible for
> Joe A Nasty who wants to steal my car and is in no way restricted or
> prevented from doing so by society.

Which is consistent with my point. In a theoretical society, if everyone
is responsible for themselves, they won't offend others.

The liberal principle is that citizens should be allowed all freedoms
until they harm others. Various people draw lines where citizenship
ends, bounded by youth, mental health and addiction. These should be the
lines the police defend.

> 
> Surely you see that you _can't_ be responsible for everyone and that
> once someone has killed you it's a bit late to go and talk to his
> parents about it :)
> 
This results from my ommision of "individual". I'll discount it as
irrelevant unless you want to restate it.
> > >                                                        E.g. blow
> > > someone's head off because their loud hawiian shirt offends you, or
> > > steal someone's car because it looks nice or rape someone because they
> > > look nice. 
> > 
> > This shows responsibility how?
> 
> Oh I see. You are inventing an impossible situation where everyone is
> perfect? We don't have that, hence we have to give up a little to get
> security.

You are arguing with my assumptions. When I show them consistent, you
tell me that it's impossible.

The actual point at issue is this: I want to move towards a society 
where citizens respect each other and enjoy freedoms.

You feel that no-one can be trusted without the law to prevent them
misbehaving. Indeed, you feel that there should be no control on the 
police which hinder their investigations.

That's fundamental. Both are rational views. I just wish I could change
your mind.

Regards

Kieran



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