[SWLUG] Re: Starting with Linux

Thu Jan 20 16:28:32 UTC 2005

Tony Pursell wrote:
>On 19 Jan 2005 at 23:43, Adam Rykala wrote:
>
>I'm with you all the way, Adam.  I want to see Linux succeed.  Its just that 
>I think that the prevailing opinion that Hugh should do his own install is not 
>the way forward, if Linux is to break through into wider PC use.  We have 
>to look for what it is that attracts ordinary, non-techie, users and one thing 
>is that it come pre-installed and ready to run.  If Hugh found a PC with, for 
>instance, Ubuntu pre-installed, he would then, for instance,  find he has a 
>fully specced office suite in the form of OpenOffice.org, instead of Works, 
>which is about the best you will get free on a new Windows PC, or forking 
>out £hundreds for MS Office.  
>
>  

But the other side of the coin is learning how to install is also a 
valuable experience. SuSe install's are the proverbial piece of, and 
Mandrake isn't that far behind either. Xandros and Linspire are largely 
one click, I've heard glowing respect for Ubuntu and Knoppis as well, 
particularly with hardware detection....

Don't forget that many pc users haven't installed Windows often 
either.... It comes preinstalled. So while I accept the beauty of 
preinstalled Linux on a machine, its quite informative to roll up your 
sleeves and get the install going.

Particularly when a browsing of the Linux mags in Smiths in Cardiff give 
you a wide degree of choice. I got Suse 9.1 Pro from Linux Mag in 
December on DVD (in fact, for some reason there were two dvd's in my 
issue, so me and my wife have a dvd each) - recently I've seen Mandrake 
10.1 final, Fedora Core 3,  Ubuntu, Knoppix................ Not bad for 
a £5.....

Debian in that respect isn't the best choice in that department, its too 
much like jumping in at the deep end for my liking - particularly for a 
newbie. If someone isn't interested in running their own servers, and 
just want something "that works" - I'd look at Ubuntu, Xandros or even 
Mandrake before Debian...... Before anyone gangs up on me for sacrilege 
(;-) ) I'm just saying that the beauty and choice of Linux is the 
ability to choose the horse for the course.....

>>In my Suse install I double click on a RPM and install.
>>    
>
>Perhaps other distros should take note.
> 
>  
Agreed - although as I recall MDK does similar with URPMI. Though I must 
admit part of me is uneasy at the idea of just click a file to install 
it. Splitting off the process of software install to tools such as YaST 
or Urpmi means splitting off the process whereas people double click 
files "just to see what happens"... it, together with the idea of 
running as a restricted user, would minimise the ease with which malware 
could get a hold...

I've seen too many people complain "xxx isn't available" when if they 
search their software install tool, it's there. On some of the SuSe 
forums it's been very noticable.... I guess it's from the Windows world 
where people expect that method to install software... Whether its 
Synaptic, YaST, Urpmi or C'n'R - I think it makes more sense to split 
off software installation that way....

>>If one app is making you shy away from Linux, then perhaps Linux isn't
>>for you... but there's a long way between that and "isn't ready for
>>anyone".
>>    
>
>Missing TaxCalc & Money wouldn't cause me a problem as I would 
>always have the know how to dual boot.  I give these as a examples of 
>good value commercial software that Linux cannot attract with a small 
>user base.  
> 
>  
Apart from the fact that Linux isn't so much a small user base, its more 
an issue of niche software (TaxCalc anyway) - Both apps can be 
replicated by spreadsheet design (to a point) and they'll come. After 
all, the one thing that held me off for a while was good vector design 
software, and that is now moot with SodiPodi, Inkscape and OODraw.....

>>As I said it isn't a personal flame, I just despair of XP themes for
>>KDE or Gnome, calls for an XP start menu, OS X style Docks etc. What I
>>like about Linux is the power. The shell is a godsend. When my wife
>>finished installing her SuSe box she started using it, and then
>>realised she didn't have a web editor installed she liked. SO while
>>she was working i ssh'ed in, started Yast and installed Quanta and
>>Mozilla Composer.
>>    
>
>I'm not taking this at all personally.  I enjoy a robust discussion and accept 
>that I will get strong opinions back if I am a bit provocative.  
>
>  
 ;-)

>>She's now (as both of us) on KDE 3.4 beta 1.....
>>
>>I'm not flaming you, or anyone here. Its just my view. I started on 8
>>bit micro's, went to CP/M and then used Unix in a IT environment, then
>>heading onto Win 3.11/WfWG and then NT Server admin. I used to love my
>>X box with CDE in work, and preferred using that to any Win box, even
>>when it was in mono only ;)
>>
>>The most telling indicator for me was my wife, who isn't particular
>>techy and uses her pc as a tool. When her XP machine went ****up last
>>year she was using my Linux box for a month. She loved it so much that
>>last week, when her XP install just keeled over and died (as it did on
>>a bi-monthly basis without fail - and it wasn't spyware - she's a good
>>admin of her own box and has no truck with Bonzi Buddy's, Smiley
>>Central and the like - in fact SC launches her into a tirade of cusses
>>;-) ) she said "**** IT" and grabbed my SuSe DVD, and is now happily
>>using Quanta, OpenOffice and Firefox on her machine and in her own
>>words "Why didn't I do this years ago"?
>>
>>    
>You're experience in winning you wife over is great.  I'm fed up with my 
>Win 98 falling over.  So that's what has made me have a go.  But we are 
>both techies with lots of history.  (My Unix goes back to the time in the 
>1980s when there were no PCs.)  So we can support others who want to 
>try Linux.  Would your wife have gone that way on her own?
>
>  
As comfortable as re-installing Windows on her own. Both OS's can throw 
a curve ball with respects to hardware. Its largely a myth that a Linux 
install is "hard" compared to Windows. Xandros, Linspire, Suse, 
Mandrake, Ubuntu, Knoppix all have pretty clear installs. When I swopped 
from MDk to Suse this year the one thing that impressed me was the ease 
of install......

The one thing Linux installs have over any win install is this... slip 
your Windows cd in and install. Wheres your apps? Its time to breal open 
all the other cd's and bung on your Word Processor, Spreadsheet etc. 
With any standard Linux install these days those apps are ready and 
waiting there.

And Windows installs are no cakewalk, I've seen plenty of cruddy 
installs, misconfigured and missing hardware. The only difference is 
hardware support. Put a Linux install on a pc with supported hardware, 
and you're on equal billing with any Windows install for hardware...

>>We're currently in the process of ruining my degree (exam week in
>>cf.ac.uk ;-) ) by discovering the joys of our own Tetrinet server. I
>>wonder if F/OSS has ever been quoted in divorce papers? ;-)
>>
>>    
>
>Good luck in your exams.
>  

Ta! ;-)

-- 
------------------------------------------------------------------------
	/Adam Rykala/
/adam at rykala.demon.co.uk/ 	
	/I'm rated PG-34!!
/

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